pow at le cateau 1914

[mullo]

hi all

how can i find details of my great grandfathers incarceration during the battle of le cataeu

thank you

lee

[Doug Johnson]

Hi Lee,

You could start by posting his name and as much information as you can here. In most cases the chances of finding out specific details are very slim, however if you know his regiment then the diaries can indicate what they were doing at the time and identifying other prisoners taken at the same time who were released and interviewed, could give you a good idea of what happened to him.

Doug

[Stebie9173]

Lee has given the name of his great grandfather in the topic title.

Sergeant John William Mullins, 7214, 2nd Bn., Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (13th Brigade, 5th Division).

Captured at Le Cateau on 26th August 1914.

The Behind the Wire database mentions a Sgt. Mullins of the KOYLI as someone mentioned in someone elses interview (possibly giving details of capture or confinement).

Surname: MULLINS

Rank: SGT

Regiment: YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

Camp, hospital, etc. : No location given

Index page: 18

Details: REFERENCE

Pages: '207'

I can't find him in the National Archives online search:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...amp;queryType=1

Can anyone else find the reference?

Steve.

[mullo]

Hi Lee,

You could start by posting his name and as much information as you can here. In most cases the chances of finding out specific details are very slim, however if you know his regiment then the diaries can indicate what they were doing at the time and identifying other prisoners taken at the same time who were released and interviewed, could give you a good idea of what happened to him.

Doug

hi. thank you.

he was 2nd battalion koyli. 7214

ta.

[Stebie9173]

7214 Mullins, Sgt. J. W. is included on a long list of KOYLI Missing published in the The Times of Monday, Oct 26, 1914; pg. 12 to 13 (Issue 40677)

Steve.

[mullo]

Lee has given the name of his great grandfather in the topic title.

Sergeant John William Mullins, 7214, 2nd Bn., Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry (13th Brigade, 5th Division).

Captured at Le Cateau on 26th August 1914.

The Behind the Wire database mentions a Sgt. Mullins of the KOYLI as someone mentioned in someone elses interview (possibly giving details of capture or confinement).

Surname First names Rank Regiment Unit Camp, hospital, etc Index page Details Pages

Surname: MULLINS

Rank: SGT

Regiment: YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY

Camp, hospital, etc. : No location given

Index page: 18

Details: REFERENCE

Pages: '207'

I can't find him in the National Archives online search:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...amp;queryType=1

Can anyone else find the reference?

Steve.

hi.

thank you so much for your help. its much welcomed.

really dont know where to start with this.

[Doug Johnson]

Hi,

Should have read the title but it is way past my bed time!

The mention is in the report by Sgt Charles Mathews, 2/KOYLI (PoW 27th August 1914). I have the full report so Lee can either download a copy from the NA or wait for me to transcribe it. He mentions that 150 of his regiment were with him at Sennelager including Sgt Mullins.

Doug

[mullo]

Hi,

Should have read the title but it is way past my bed time!

The mention is in the report by Sgt Charles Mathews, 2/KOYLI (PoW 27th August 1914). I have the full report so Lee can either download a copy from the NA or wait for me to transcribe it. He mentions that 150 of his regiment were with him at Sennelager including Sgt Mullins.

Doug

hi. this is very exiting to hear and would be very greatfull if you could forward the info.

many thanks. lee

[Doug Johnson]

Lee,

Transcript now available Here

A very interesting report of his escape etc with others.

According to Sgt Mathews, Sgt Mullins was not wounded. There is an interesting snippet about what "B" company were up to and they made up the bulk of the PoWs at Senne. If he was in B then you now know what he is doing when he was captured.

Interestingly, Sgt Mullins and others are missing from those mentioned by Mathews on the NA web site so even a trawl through would not have found him!

Doug

[mullo]

Lee,

Transcript now available Here

A very interesting report of his escape etc with others.

According to Sgt Mathews, Sgt Mullins was not wounded. There is an interesting snippet about what "B" company were up to and they made up the bulk of the PoWs at Senne. If he was in B then you now know what he is doing when he was captured.

Interestingly, Sgt Mullins and others are missing from those mentioned by Mathews on the NA web site so even a trawl through would not have found him!

Doug

hi Doug.

What can i say?

Your a diamond! i am so greatfull for the time and effort you put in for me.

the diary was really interesting and was quite emotional too!

it sounds like, as you say, his company was ordered to hold their positions at le cateau whilst others ot away resulting in his capture.

i just wonder if his and others DCM medals had something to do with this as i can not find a citation.

once again, thank you.

lee.

[Stebie9173]

The overall heading for the D.C.M. earned by Sgt. Mullins reads:

"His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned rewards in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in the Field, which have been brought to notice in accordance with the terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5th May 1919 unless otherwise stated :"

See the bottom of the left column and the top of the right.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...&exact=7214

The Gazette issue then shows D.S.O.s and M.C.s for officers, then the D.C.M.s, then M.M.s

AWARDED THE DISTINGUISHED CONDUCT MEDAL

7214 Sjt. J. W. Mullins, 2nd Bn., York. L.I. (Leeds).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...&exact=7214

Army Order 193 of 1919 refers to gallantry whilst escaping or attempting to escape from Prisoner of War Camps.

I firmly believe that Sgt. Mullins D.C.M. was awarded for escaping from a P.O.W. camp (whether succesful or not is another matter!)

This issue of the Gazette is known as the "Escapers Gazette". See: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...s+gazette\

Steve.

[mullo]

The overall heading for the D.C.M. earned by Sgt. Mullins reads:

"His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned rewards in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in the Field, which have been brought to notice in accordance with the terms of Army Order 193 of 1919. To be dated 5th May 1919 unless otherwise stated :"

See the bottom of the left column and the top of the right.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...&exact=7214

The Gazette issue then shows D.S.O.s and M.C.s for officers, then the D.C.M.s, then M.M.s

AWARDED THE DISTINGUISHED CONDUCT MEDAL

7214 Sjt. J. W. Mullins, 2nd Bn., York. L.I. (Leeds).

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...&exact=7214

Army Order 193 of 1919 refers to gallantry whilst escaping or attempting to escape from Prisoner of War Camps.

I firmly believe that Sgt. Mullins D.C.M. was awarded for escaping from a P.O.W. camp (whether succesful or not is another matter!)

This issue of the Gazette is known as the "Escapers Gazette". See: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...s+gazette\

Steve.

hi steve.

you are a diamond and i am truly greatfull for the work you have done for me.

many thanks

lee.

[Doug Johnson]

Lee,

I think that you should treat the fact that he was in "B" company with a little bit of caution. It is a strong posibility but with 150 of the regiment being together I think it is too many for one company. Although 150 is a round number and probably an approximation which could therefore be a slight exaggeration, there must have been men from other companies there, as indeed there were. The document I transcribed is a report. You should check the battalion diaries if they exist. Sometimes they are useless and sometimes missing but sometimes very revealing. I think the NA have most of these and some are available on line. I have no expertise in accessing these so if you need help try posting a request in the regiments section.

Doug

[John490]

I've just read this thread with great interest, My Great Grandfather was also wounded and taken POW at Le Cateau on 26th of August. He was kept at Staumuhle and Lichtenhorst, I have two postcards that he sent. He was 9671 Pte Joseph Percival Rothwell, 2nd Manchesters and he was repatriated on 01.01.19. How do I go about searching 'The Times' to see if he is mentioned as 'missing' or captured etc?

I got his records off the WW1 pension database on ancestry.co.uk but there is no record of him on the POW database or 'behind the wire', but I have contacted the ICRC who keep a list of POWs amongst other things. Any help would be much appreciated as this 4 year period is a blank.

[Max]

According to the Reg History Sgt Mullins was D Company, 2/KOYLI.

Andy

[mullo]

According to the Reg History Sgt Mullins was D Company, 2/KOYLI.

Andy

hi.

thank you for this info

ps.

did you recieve my email address for copy of extract from history book?

[Stebie9173]

The Times will not record anything other than "Missing" - No details of Camps are given.

Your best bet is the local newspapers of the time for him &/or his family. Don't just search in 1914. the article on my Great Uncle taken POW at Le Cateau was in February 1916's papers! (It gave Company and Camp details - even his Hut number!)

Steve.

[mullo]

The Times will not record anything other than "Missing" - No details of Camps are given.

Your best bet is the local newspapers of the time for him &/or his family. Don't just search in 1914. the article on my Great Uncle taken POW at Le Cateau was in February 1916's papers! (It gave Company and Camp details - even his Hut number!)

Steve.

hi.

you are a star. thank you.

this is really taking over my life at the moment!!!!, but its good.

thank you.

lee

[Stebie9173]

Sorry to Hijack the topic, Lee

This is John's great grandfather reported as POW in the Times of 7-5-1915:

Lee,

Do you want a copy of the page(s) with Sgt Mullins on them?

Steve.

[mullo]

Sorry to Hijack the topis, Lee

This is John's great grandfather reported as POW in the Times of 7-5-1915:

Lee,

Do you want a copy of the page(s) with Sgt Mullins on them?

Steve.

hi. wow. thats some more great info.

please can i have the page.

your help is very welcome and much appreciated.

lee

[Stebie9173]

Send me your e-mail address in a PM, Lee and I'll send the pages to you.

It's sobering to see all the names on those lists - and they were only part of the Missing men at Le Cateau.

Steve.

[Arnie]

reading Sjt mathews report on his escape from Germany in 1915 I see he mentions Maj C A L Yates who was company commander of B Coy 2/KOYLI at Le Cataue. Here is a excerpt from a newspaper report from Madeley Maj Yates' home town.

He became a major in 1912 and won his VC on 26 August 1914 at the Battle of Le Cateau, where Major General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien fought his famous delaying action to check the German pursuit after Mons.

Major Yate’s citation in the London Gazette of November 25, 1915 read: "Major Charles Allix Lavington Yate (deceased), 2nd Battalion The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, commanded one of the two companies that remained to the end in the trenches at Le Cateau on August 26, and when all other officers were killed or wounded and ammunition exhausted, led his 19 survivors against the enemy in a charge in which he was severely wounded. He was picked up by the enemy and he subsequently died as a prisoner of war". It has been said that he actually died trying to escape from captivity - has anyone got any further information? He died on September 20 1914 and is buried at the British Military Cemetery at Stahnsdorf, South West Berlin. His Victoria Cross is kept in the Yorkshire Light Infantry Regimental Mueum at Pontefract.

Four other VCs were won at Le Cateau that day, including one by Lance Corporal Frederick William Holmes of the same regiment

Note that the answer to the question about the 150 men of B Coy captured It would appear it was probably less than 19.

Maj Yates was also an observor at the Russo/ Japanese war and is said to have reported on the effective use of machine guns and quick firing artillery and its devestating effect on cavalry. a report that no one seems to have read!

Would Sjt Mullins have qualified for a DCM whilst a prisoner of war? I thought that the BEM, MBE etc. wasauthorized By King George V for cases of Gallantry etc that were not carried out on the field of battle. I think in WW1, time in a POW camp did not count for promotion or campaign medals. I may be wrong

Arnie

[Doug Johnson]

Arnie,

Interesting story. Yate was a PoW but is not listed in Cox's. Presumably he died before the bureau really got going. He was incarcerated at Torgau whence he escaped and died. At least that what I assume happened as that what it says in the list of PoW reports on the LLT. Unfortunately I do not have any of the pages listed and finding them will now be difficult due to the changed NA search engine.

The 150 men, mostly of B coy was mentioned by Sgt Mathews though he does mention a few of D coy. Clearly 150 men is way too many for a one coy and if only 19 were of B coy and that was most of them, then 150 must have been well exaggerated. How did you derive the 19 Arnie?

If there were two coys which stayed behind and B was one, was D the other?

As for awards and medals etc, yes is the answer. In the same place as Sgt Mathews report is one by Cpt T K Allsop who was only a 2nd Lt when captured and promoted twice as a PoW though this only appears to have applied to some officers. Medals were awarded for escaping, as was Sgt Mullins DCM plus medals were awarded for PoWs who did outstanding services whilst in the camps though these not gallantry medals but awards such as then MSM and even MID. Time as a PoW also counted towards long service awards eg my Grandfather was awarded the TEM after the war which required 12 years service. He enlisted in 1910 so had four years when taken prisoner in 1914, war service counted double so his 4 years as a PoW counted as 8 and he therefore qualified. He was discharged early in 1919.

Doug

[mullo]

reading Sjt mathews report on his escape from Germany in 1915 I see he mentions Maj C A L Yates who was company commander of B Coy 2/KOYLI at Le Cataue. Here is a excerpt from a newspaper report from Madeley Maj Yates' home town.

He became a major in 1912 and won his VC on 26 August 1914 at the Battle of Le Cateau, where Major General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien fought his famous delaying action to check the German pursuit after Mons.

Major Yate's citation in the London Gazette of November 25, 1915 read: "Major Charles Allix Lavington Yate (deceased), 2nd Battalion The Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, commanded one of the two companies that remained to the end in the trenches at Le Cateau on August 26, and when all other officers were killed or wounded and ammunition exhausted, led his 19 survivors against the enemy in a charge in which he was severely wounded. He was picked up by the enemy and he subsequently died as a prisoner of war". It has been said that he actually died trying to escape from captivity - has anyone got any further information? He died on September 20 1914 and is buried at the British Military Cemetery at Stahnsdorf, South West Berlin. His Victoria Cross is kept in the Yorkshire Light Infantry Regimental Mueum at Pontefract.

Four other VCs were won at Le Cateau that day, including one by Lance Corporal Frederick William Holmes of the same regiment

Note that the answer to the question about the 150 men of B Coy captured It would appear it was probably less than 19.

Maj Yates was also an observor at the Russo/ Japanese war and is said to have reported on the effective use of machine guns and quick firing artillery and its devestating effect on cavalry. a report that no one seems to have read!

Would Sjt Mullins have qualified for a DCM whilst a prisoner of war? I thought that the BEM, MBE etc. wasauthorized By King George V for cases of Gallantry etc that were not carried out on the field of battle. I think in WW1, time in a POW camp did not count for promotion or campaign medals. I may be wrong

Arnie

hi, many thanks for your input,it certainly is very interesting and the plot as to how my greatgrandad got his dcm thickens.

any more info would be welcomed.

thanks

lee.

[mullo]

Arnie,

Interesting story. Yate was a PoW but is not listed in Cox's. Presumably he died before the bureau really got going. He was incarcerated at Torgau whence he escaped and died. At least that what I assume happened as that what it says in the list of PoW reports on the LLT. Unfortunately I do not have any of the pages listed and finding them will now be difficult due to the changed NA search engine.

The 150 men, mostly of B coy was mentioned by Sgt Mathews though he does mention a few of D coy. Clearly 150 men is way too many for a one coy and if only 19 were of B coy and that was most of them, then 150 must have been well exaggerated. How did you derive the 19 Arnie?

If there were two coys which stayed behind and B was one, was D the other?

As for awards and medals etc, yes is the answer. In the same place as Sgt Mathews report is one by Cpt T K Allsop who was only a 2nd Lt when captured and promoted twice as a PoW though this only appears to have applied to some officers. Medals were awarded for escaping, as was Sgt Mullins DCM plus medals were awarded for PoWs who did outstanding services whilst in the camps though these not gallantry medals but awards such as then MSM and even MID. Time as a PoW also counted towards long service awards eg my Grandfather was awarded the TEM after the war which required 12 years service. He enlisted in 1910 so had four years when taken prisoner in 1914, war service counted double so his 4 years as a PoW counted as 8 and he therefore qualified. He was discharged early in 1919.

Doug

hi.

this is all very interesting and i am really appreciating your knowledge.

as for my grandfathers dcm, i am anxious to find out exactly how he got it.

many thanks again

lee