Numbers of horses

[fv1620]

I am studying a booklet by the Board of Agriculture & Fisheries "Types of Horses Suitable for Army Remounts" 1909. Ten types of horse are described with their suitability for certain units. Some figures are given for annual requirements in peace time, I assume these are the replacements needed. But I wondered what the full horse complement would normally be for this time. The only figures quoted are for these units.

Cavalry of the Line - 1,000

RE & ASC - 1,360

Mounted Infantry - 140

What does Cavalry of the Line mean? I assume Mounted Infantry are infantry who merely arrive on horseback but fight dismounted, in the same way that paras are infantry but have a novel way of arriving at a battle?

Thanks

[NoRemorseDK]

On horses, I have this entry in the War Diary of the 2nd battalion, Canadian Railway Troops:

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e059/e001468328.jpg

hope it helps

[alliekiwi]

I assume Mounted Infantry are infantry who merely arrive on horseback but fight dismounted, in the same way that paras are infantry but have a novel way of arriving at a battle?

That's exactly what Mounted Infantry are. In the Australian forces, these were known as the 'Light Horse', in the NZ forces, they were the 'Mounted Rifles'.

'Cavalry of the Line' is the cavalry units minus (I think) the Household Cavalry which is considered a separate corps.

Allie

[fv1620]

OK thanks both. I find archive documents fascinating thanks for that.

Clive

[Beau Geste]

I'm no expert but I am ex Household Cavalry. I don't know if it helps but we were always referred to as "heavy cavalry" as opposed to "light cavalry".

Harry

[Beau Geste]

That's exactly what Mounted Infantry are. In the Australian forces, these were known as the 'Light Horse', in the NZ forces, they were the 'Mounted Rifles'.

'Cavalry of the Line' is the cavalry units minus (I think) the Household Cavalry which is considered a separate corps.

Allie

Hello Allie,

I haven't heard the phrase "cavalry of the line" before but I wonder why this concept is "minus....the Household Cavalry". In the Great War both the Life Guards and the Royal Horse Guards were involved but like a lot of other cavalry regiments ended up in the trenches.

Harry

[TonyE]

Last February I gave a talk to the Birmingham University Centre for First World War Studies Saturday School on "Horsing the British Army 1914-1918"

Immediately prior to the war the Remount Department was finding about 2,500 horses annually with a reserve of about 25,000 horses. In addition, the 1911-1912 survey had identified about 130,000 horses in civilian service suitable for army requisition in war.

In 1914 the requirements for horses were:

Infantry Division 5,800

Cavalry Division 9,815

Royal Artillery

Peace establishment 6,106

War establishment 24,868

Total army horse strenghth on mobilisation was 171,730

Within ten days of mobilisation the Remount Department had impressed 165,000 horses.

Hope this helps,

Regards

TonyE

[Pete1052]

Obtaining horses was a constant problem during the American Civil War. Confederate cavalrymen had to obtain their own mounts, which could lead to a lot of dismounted cavalrymen who had to beg, borrow or steal a new horse. In the Union army the government furnished the horses. Also, in the Union army knowing how to ride and take care of a horse was a not a prerequisite for service in the cavalry, which in part explains the comparitive inefficiency of the U.S. Cavalry during the first two years of the war--many regiments were full of men who barely knew how to ride. Today in the U.S. Army the time of day when vehicle maintenance is conducted is called "motor stables," a throwback to the days when mounted units went to the stables to care for their horses. During my service two installations I was on had buildings that had originally been horse stables.

[fv1620]

Yes thanks everyone.

TonyE, those 165,000 remounts. Did wartime modify the strictness about colour? This 1909 book says "Whites & greys are only required for special purposes and are always specially ordered. Other very light or washy, coloured horses are not accepted."

Thanks

Clive Elliott

[alliekiwi]

Hello Allie,

I haven't heard the phrase "cavalry of the line" before but I wonder why this concept is "minus....the Household Cavalry". In the Great War both the Life Guards and the Royal Horse Guards were involved but like a lot of other cavalry regiments ended up in the trenches.

Harry

Hi, Harry.

I thought 'Cavalry of the Line' was just the blanket term for those which came under a quasi-cavalry description/heading. I read it somewhere, but don't remember where. But one thing I do remember is that the Household Cavalry was not considered to be under this blanket term. No idea why.

That being said, reading on the 1914-1918 site here Chris has the Cavalry of the Line just being the Dragoon Guards, Dragoons, Hussars and Lancers.

Then there's this snippet from the Royal New Zealand Artillery Old Comrades' Association which discusses the 'Right of the Line' and shows a little of the distinction between Cavalry of the Line and the Household Cavalry.

The Royal Horse Artillery was regarded as an extension of the cavalry and given precedence accordingly. In the first edition of King's Regulations following its formation in 1793, the RHA was placed between the Household Cavalry and the cavalry of the line, with a note that '... on parades the Horse Artillery whether mounted or dismounted take the right of all other cavalry.' However, in 1857 the Commander-in-Chief submitted that '... as in the year 1756 precedence was given to the Royal Artillery before all infantry, including the regiments of the foot guards and dismounted cavalry, it would be consistent that the RHA should take precedence over all cavalry, including the Household Cavalry.' Her Majesty Queen Victoria approved, and in Queen's Regulations for that year the RHA was moved to the top of the precedence table. But ten years later another dispute occurred, this time between the RHA and the Household Cavalry, over their relative positions on a church parade at Windsor. As a result, the Commander-in-Chief recommended that, as was formerly the case, the Household Cavalry, as part of the bodyguard of the Sovereign, take precedence over all other corps, '... but that the Royal Horse Artillery when on parade with their guns take the right and march past at the head of the Household Cavalry...' The Queen approved, and ever since the RHA have taken post in their original position between the Household Cavalry and the cavalry of the line, but take the right of the Household Cavalry when on parade with their guns.

The British Ministry of Defence has this snippet:

The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards is Scotland's senior regiment and her only regular cavalry. The Regiment was formed in 1971 from the union of two famous regiments, the 3rd Carabiniers and the Royal Scots Greys. The 3rd Carabiniers had themselves been constituted in 1922 from the amalgamation of the old 3rd Dragoon Guards and the Carabiniers (6th Dragoon Guards). The history of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards is therefore the record of three ancient regiments and, through the Royal Scots Greys, they can claim to be the oldest surviving Cavalry of the Line in the British Army. With the other cavalry regiments they now form part of the Royal Armoured Corps but, though horses have been replaced by tanks and armoured cars, it is the cavalry spirit of the past which provides the inspiration for the future, whatever it may hold.

Allie

[pmaasz]

When the Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars sailed for France in September 1914 the strength was 24 officers, 447 other ranks and 455 horses. Shortly before, the record states that the regiment was at full strength in men and horses, so these figures must be pretty close to normal.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

What does Cavalry of the Line mean? fv 1620 post 1

If you look on the Long Long Trail the distinction applies to both cavalry and infantry; there were both Cavalry of the Line regiments and Infantry of the Line regiments (they were often just called line regiments) and in both cases these were to set them apart from the guards. Like so many things, it predates WWI, when the British Army did not appear from no where.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

165,000 remounts. Did wartime modify the strictness about colour? FV1620 post9

I would expect, as with everything else, as the war went on there would be some relaxations, because the demand continued and also grew particularly for the ASC. No wonder motor transport increased, horses are harder to replace.

[Heid the Ba]

I read recently, but don't recall where, that light coloured horses were accepted in wartime, but dyed a darker colour to make them less visible.