Cliff S Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 After many years of thinking about it I purchased an SMLE last year but have no idea of its history. Since joining this Forum I realize that there are many people out there who wish to share the information they posess and probably can help me identify my particular rifle. Assuming that is the case can anyone please tell me which of the varied markings on the rifle are the ones which I need to photograph and display on here that will help to identify its origins and history. Thanks in anticipation. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Describe the markings on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 The most important markings are those on the right hand side of the butt socket underneath the bolt handle. It should typically say something like; (Crown) G.R. ENFIELD 1916 SHT.L.E. III or similar. Tell us what yours is stamped and we can tell you the details. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 The key to identifying it is to be found on the "wrist" of the rifle (between the wooden buttstock and the fore-end) - it is part of the receiver. This will likley contain the rifle's mark Sht L E MkIII or Sht L E MkIII* etc and the manufacturer. (Enfield, BSA, LSA, Lithgow etc) On the rear of the bolt handle, the receiver, the barrel knox form, the underside of the rear sight, the bayonet boss (on the front sight protector) and perhaps if you are lucky impressed into the foreend just behind where the front sight protector fits, you will find serial numbers. Originally these would all have matched - often when rifles have been repaired or FTR'd (Factory thorough refinished) these do not match or have been renumbered to match. The other thing you might like to do is take off the upper rear handguard (the small one - lift the rear sight up to the vertical posiiton to get it out of the way then pry the handguard up carefully it is held in place by two springclips) and look under it at the barrel this is often covered with marks - proof marks (certifying the quality. strength of the metal etc), armourer's inspection marks (a large asterix here indicates "rust found in bore" and there are numerous others) and sometimes possession marks australian=Broad arrow in a D etc) These will give you some information about the life of your rifle who produced it, when it was produced, if and when it was modified etc so I would photograph the wrist band (under the bolt handle) and this area (the barrel knox form) - or simply report what is stamped there. If by "history" you mean which units had the rifle, which battles it was used in etc - you are very unlikely to be able to tell without clear provenance etc. However there may be a small brass disc in the buttsock which was there for the purpose of stamping in unit / rack number identifiers - these were removed mid war and so do not appear on many rifles - also as a guide to ownership they are fairly unreliable without supporting provenance as there is a market for these discs themselves - both new and reproduction and as they are fixed in place with a small brass screw they are easily moved, removed etc...however they do give an indication. Chris (pipped by Mr E.!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted 24 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Wow - so fast folks, 3 replies already. I will take some pics of those areas and post them on here. When I took off the handguard held by the two clips sure enough it is covered in marks which I will try to decipher. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted 24 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Markings on here read: No 1 MK 3 FR. and on second pic: 57906 x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Post WWI probably Indian produced - is my first impression Is there no stamping on the OTHER side of the wrist? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted 24 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2007 By your description I assume you mean the "wrist" is the part where the safety catch is at the top then no there are no marks on the other side. On the front right end of the bolt is a marking which could be crossed swords (sabres), visible on second pic. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Just a quick follow up to explain : The numbering / nomenclature of British rifles was changed in the 20s (1926?) this was when the Short Lee Enfield MkIII became the Rifle No1 MkIII. / MkIII* etc The use of Arabic numerals rather than Roman Numerals also indicates later, Indian production - actually if I recall correctly post 1949 production. I do not believe any other producers used arabic numbering for this designation. FR is the Indian stamp for "Factory Refinished" It is therefore possible that what you have is an earlier produced rifle which has been refinished in the Indian Ishapore arsenal but there should be evidence of the original production stampings onthe other side under the bolt-handle. Ishapore made No 1s in various forms up until the early 1970s. Some known as 2As or 2A1s in 7.62mm, but they also went back to producing No1s in .303 for a brief period. Chris absence of any other markings pretty much confirms all the above - post 1949 produced Indian rifle The mark on the bolthead you refer to is a proof mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Usually the FR, stands for Factory Refurbished. As others have said there should be more markings under the bolt cocking lever, which is the opposite side of the rifle to your photo. Hwyl Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 From World Guns 'When the World War One was over, there were no questions of quality of basic SMLE design, but some improvements were suggested and introduced in later patterns, such as peep-hole, receiver mounted sights. These "interwar" patterns were not issued in any significant quantities until the 1941. In 1926, Britains, quite confused with numerous 'Marks' and 'Marks with stars' of their weaponry, decided to adopt a new numbering system, so the SMLE Mark III became the "Rifle, No. 1 Mark 3".' This I think ties up with you'r rifles numbering, it should have SMLE Mark III on the otherside. Hwyl Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 From World Guns This I think ties up with you'r rifles numbering, it should have SMLE Mark III on the otherside. Hwyl Kevin Kevin, It won't have anything on the other side if it is, as I believe a post WWII Indian produced rifle. And I just checked my refs - Only India used the arabic numbers stamped on No1 rifles starting in 1949. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Chris, are we agreed it is a factory repaired re-numbered mkIII. Hwyl Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Chris, are we agreed it is a factory repaired re-numbered mkIII. Hwyl Kevin Hi Kevin, Not entirely. It has been Factory Throrough Refinished/Refurbished/Repaired in India. (FR stamp) But given the apparent lack of stamping on the other side and the No1Mk3 (arabic numbers) I am fairly certain it it is a post 1949 Indian PRODUCED rifle. I am not sure if it has been renumbered as we have not yet seen the numbering on the bolt, barrel, underside of the rear sight etc. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted 24 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2007 The numbering on the bolt, the barrel and undersight is the same as on the second pic, 57906. All the marks under the handguard are too small to be photographed but if I can make them out then I will enter them on here. Thanks for the replies so far. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Hi Chris, thanks for the update, would like to add that about three years ago whilst visiting our daughter in upstate NY we visited the American Precision Museum in Windsor, VT. An eye opener in rifle manufacturing of the 1850s Hwyl Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 For comparison.... A bit messy as later in Indian Service the metal on SMLEs was often pained with a heavy black enamel but: Buttsocket Markings on an equivalent rifle The full rifle (this one a wire wrapped grenade lauching rifle) A selection of Ishapore Enfields: 1) a converted to a .410 shotgun (from a 1917 Enfield produced No1MkIII*) 2) a 1944 No1 MkIII* 3) a 1955 No1 Mk3 4) a 1968 2a (7.62mm - note square magazine and squared off foresight protector)) One other thing that often indicates Indian service is a transverse "strengthening" screw through the middle of the fore-end. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 Hello, I have acquired a cool piece of history I think. However, there are so many markings that I can’t figure out what’s what. Was wondering if anyone here could help? I’ve attached as many photos of the markings as I could. I’m rather confused by it to be honest. Thanks for any info you could provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 On 24/12/2020 at 19:02, Skipper said: Please looking for help identifying my lee enfield. Can anyone tell me what lee enfield I have here ? That’s a Lee enfield on what appears to be a weatherby bdl stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CMV said: Hi CMV Unfortunately this, as is clearly shown in the first pic, a WWII vintage Rifle No4 MkI which has been FTR'd (refinished) post WWII (in 1958) to be a Rifle No4 Mk1/2 (with a hung trigger) As such it is 40 years too late for this forum! Just FYI it was originally made at the Royal Ordnance Factory at Fazackerley (nr Liverpool) and has a mis-matched, early Longbranch bolt in it. Have a look over at gunboards.com on the Lee-Enfield site there. Chris Edited 10 February , 2021 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 Just now, 4thGordons said: Hi CMV Unfortunately this, as is clearly shown in the first pic, a WWII vintage Rifle No4 MkI which has been FTR's post WWII (in 1958) to be a Rifle No4 Mk1/2 (with a hung trigger) As such it is 40 years too late for this forum! Just FYI it was originally made at the Royal Ordnance Factory at Fazackerley (nr Liverpool) and has a mis-matched, early Longbranch bolt in it. Have a look over at gunboards.com on the Lee-Enfield site there. Chris Thanks so much, I’ll check it out. I was wondering if it was the original bolt. Sorry for posting in the wrong forum, thanks again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 Just now, CMV said: Thanks so much, I’ll check it out. I was wondering if it was the original bolt. Sorry for posting in the wrong forum, thanks again!! No problem, you are very welcome BTW I may have misread the refurbishment date I think it is probably 1948 not '58 Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 2 minutes ago, 4thGordons said: No problem, you are very welcome BTW I may have misread the refurbishment date I think it is probably 1948 not '58 Chris Thank you! As I come across Great War weapons I will post for all. I recently came across a Potsdam Musket that I acquired, but am assuming would be somewhere around 60 years too early for this board. Pretty good stuff here tho, I think I’ll stick around. Thanks again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 10 February , 2021 Share Posted 10 February , 2021 Welcome aboard! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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