azureus Posted 23 December , 2007 Share Posted 23 December , 2007 Hi , Can anyone tell me if there is a way of finding out why my grandfather was awarded the croix de guerre? He was sjt Herbert Francis Gwyer 37089, he served in the Royal Field Artillery , any help would be greatly appreciated, many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 23 December , 2007 Share Posted 23 December , 2007 The award should have been promulgated in the LG,however it will only be included in a list of other names,similarly honoured,unless the Local Papers @ the time from where he lived,or the Squadron Ops records contain a reference,it is very unlikely that you will ever discover "why",as Citations for Foreign awards to UK & Commonwealth Service personell are very few & far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 23 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2007 Thanks for the reply, it was indeed listed in the LG but like you said with a list of other names,I'm now trying to look at the french archives to see if there is such an honour roll , and the local papers , cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 Do you know if your Grandfather was recommended for a British award? Richard Holmes says in Tommy that there was a set quota of foreign awards & that some commanding officers gave them to men who'd been recommended for but not awarded a British medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 The answer to your question, regrettably, is "no - there is no way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 24 December , 2007 Share Posted 24 December , 2007 On the last two occasions that I have e-mailed the Service Historique de la Défense archive at Pau, where the French medal records are kept, I haven't even received a reply, despite writing in French and giving comprehensive details of the CdG awards I was interested in. On previous occasions I have eventually received a reply to the effect that the majority of records of awards of the CdG have not been preserved and that no details could be found. There is a French language WW1 forum that has recently added an English language sub-forum - can someone post a link to that? If there is another way to get to CdG records, I'm sure that's where we would find it out. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 25 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 25 December , 2007 eureka , i think the expression is , Ive found a certificate written in French explaining the reason for my grandfather receiving the croix de guerre , i ll get a pic taken , hopefully iy will show up as its quite faded. Ive also found some handwritten records of his welcome home and newspaper cuttings , which will take some reading through by the look of it ,thanks for all your replies , and hope you will find it interesting when I post the pictures , cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 5 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Happy new year to you all , Finally managed to downsize a pic of the certificate my grandfather received with the croix de guerre, There appears to be some handwriting on it too but its not to clear ,Anyone seen these certificates before ? Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 5 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2008 and heres the medal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Centrally, above the citation, it says "Extrait de l'Ordre de la Division N° 34 du 28 Juin 1918". Can't make out the rest of the faint script at this resolution. E-mail me a higher res scan via the forum and I will endeavour to decipher it for you. Do you understand French or would you also like a translation of the citation? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Below 'Extrait etc' it says "Le Général commandant la ?? Division d'Infanterie cite à l'Ordre de la Division:" and at bottom right it says"Général Xxxxx, commandant la 28e Division d'Artillerie" and below that there is another line that I can't get - so still need a higher-res copy. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 5 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Below 'Extrait etc' it says "Le Général commandant la 28e Division d'Artillerie cite à l'Ordre de la Division:" and at bottom right it says"Général Xxxxx, commandant la 28e Division d'Artillerie" and below that there is another line that I can't get - so still need a higher-res copy. Mick Thanks Mick much appreciated Ive sent you an email and hopefully hear from you soon so I can forward on a better pic Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Chris, Did you mean there is no way of finding "why" the C de G. was awarded to a UK or Imperial soldier, ie. the reason or the particular action? I have a citation , alas in a poor way(stuck with sellotape) to one of my uncles a Gunner Sgt. in the 19th. Div. supporting the French at Mt. Kemmel April, 1918, it is quite legible with the Generals name/unit etc. stating the award was for keeping the guns in action or words to that effect. Alas his medal was dated 1917, I presume the original had been lost/mislaid & had been replaced. I can try to reproduce the citation & would apreciate any advice on perhaps getting the document "cleaned up" Are they as rare as implied in the posts? Regards. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 5 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Chris, Did you mean there is no way of finding "why" the C de G. was awarded to a UK or Imperial soldier, ie. the reason or the particular action? I have a citation , alas in a poor way(stuck with sellotape) to one of my uncles a Gunner Sgt. in the 19th. Div. supporting the French at Mt. Kemmel April, 1918, it is quite legible with the Generals name/unit etc. stating the award was for keeping the guns in action or words to that effect. Alas his medal was dated 1917, I presume the original had been lost/mislaid & had been replaced. I can try to reproduce the citation & would apreciate any advice on perhaps getting the document "cleaned up" Are they as rare as implied in the posts? Regards. Colin Hi Colin , was the citation much the same as the one ive pictured in this topic? Ive also got another topic going on where my grandfathers brigade was in april 1918 as from what I can gather was when he was awarded this croix de guerre., He was also in the 19th division , 87th rfa same battle? regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Hi Dave, Alas I don't have the citation to hand at the moment but when I do I will e mail you, certainly the wording appears similar from memory, "C" battery rings a bell . I can't be certain of the 87th/88th. Brigade but without doubt it is the same action at Kemmel. The General was "Madlin" or the like , I couldn't quite make out all of your document . Will advise asap. I also have a newspaper article re. the award plus details of his other three brothers service in France & the Midde East. I havn't checked the Mic, as in prior cases they said so very little. Cheers. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Azureus is having trouble getting a clearer scan, but in the meantime, and whilst awaiting Colin posting a copy of his citation, which does sound as if it's for the same action, here is what I can read at present. Extract from Divisional Order No 34 of 28 June 1918 The General commanding the ?? Infantry Division cites in Divisional Orders Herbert GWYER, Serjeant, "C" Battery, 87th Brigade, RFA "On 25 April 1918 this very gallant non-commissioned officer kept his gun in action under exceptionally violent bombardment. When ordered to retire, he helped to carry a gravely wounded sergeant to safety under very heavy machine-gun fire." General Madelin commanding the 28th Artillery Division ???? Madelin Extract certified 29 June 1918 Divisional Stamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 As soon as I have the citation to hand will post or e, in the meantime part of the newspaper report on the award, it does seem to be the same action. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 5 January , 2008 Share Posted 5 January , 2008 Just a pic of my uncle , I presume whilst in training. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 6 January , 2008 Share Posted 6 January , 2008 Extract from Divisional Order No 34 of 28 June 1918 The General commanding the ?? Infantry Division cites in Divisional Orders Herbert GWYER, Serjeant, "C" Battery, 87th Brigade, RFA "On 25 April 1918 this very gallant non-commissioned officer kept his gun in action under exceptionally violent bombardment. When ordered to retire, he helped to carry a gravely wounded sergeant to safety under very heavy machine-gun fire." General Madelin commanding the 28th Artillery Division ???? Madelin Extract certified 29 June 1918 Divisional Stamp Okay, I've now tidied up the translation after seeing a higher resolution copy, but there are still a couple of words that are impossible to decipher. Hopefully the wording of Colin's citation will be the same and enable us to fill in the blanks. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 6 January , 2008 Share Posted 6 January , 2008 Hi Mick, See how it appears , it should confirm the two c de g awards were for the same action at Kemmel, just the Bgde. differences 88th. for J. Braddock. Try to upload again. Regards. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 6 January , 2008 Share Posted 6 January , 2008 Okay, having now seen a hi-res copy of Colin's citation too, here's a final revised translation of the citation to Herbert Gwyer: 28th Division: Artillery Extract from Divisional Order No 34 of 28 June 1918 The General commanding the 28th Infantry Division cites in Divisional Orders Herbert GWYER, Serjeant, "C" Battery, 87th Brigade, RFA "On 25 April 1918 this very gallant non-commissioned officer kept his gun in action under exceptionally violent bombardment. When ordered to retire, he helped to carry a gravely wounded sergeant to safety under very heavy machine-gun fire." General Madelin commanding the 28th Infantry Division Signed: Madelin Colonel Lantes commanding the Artillery of the 28th Division [stamp of the Commander of the Artillery, 28th Division] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureus Posted 6 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2008 Hi Mick , thanks for the translationand your time its much appreciated , When I get the newspaper cuttings and a written record of a homecoming party for him staged in the local village hall in Coulsdon Ill forward it on if you are interested. Once again many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 6 January , 2008 Share Posted 6 January , 2008 And here's a translation of Colin's citation to John Braddock: 28th Division: Artillery Extract from Divisional Order No 34 of 28 June 1918 The General commanding the 28th Infantry Division cites in Divisional Orders JOHN BRADDOCK, Corporal, "C" Battery, 88th Brigade, RFA A non-commissioned officer of exemplary courage and composure. On 25 April 1918, under violent bombardment, he succeeded in keeping his gun in action despite very heavy casualties. General Madelin commanding the 28th Infantry Division Signed: Madelin Colonel Lantes commanding the Artillery of the 28th Division [stamp of the Commander of the Artillery, 28th Division] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bantamforgot Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Very Many thanks Mick, greatly apreciated, also to Dave who kindly sent me a Mic of my uncle. Cheers. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 11 January , 2008 Share Posted 11 January , 2008 Very happy to be able to help. It's always a pleasure to translate citations for CdGs that reflect direct appreciation and admiration on the part of the French - and very definitely didn't "come up with the rations". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now