relocation of a WWI monument : precedents ?

[JVB]

Hello,

I would be interested to be informed about any relocation of WWI monuments and the reasons why and why not.

Being confronted with a possible case I would like to gather precedental information.

[Chris_Baker]

14th (Light) Division memorial relocated from Railway Wood to Hill 60. From memory, this was because of subsidence of the ground at the original site.

[Paul Reed]

Don't like to contradict you Chris, but I am pretty sure it was due to land of the Bellewaarde estate being sold off in the 70s. The memorial was then, as now, in the care of CWGC, so there was no major issue about it being moved. Although it was indeed a shame it was moved, as it is out of context at Hill 60.

Johan - I think we could answer this better if we knew what sort of memorial you are talking about?

[Chris_Baker]

You could well be right, Paul. The old memory, you know ...

[JVB]

I'm specifically looking for arguments why such monuments should not be displaced generally seen.

I should not be convinced but how about general public not so fanatic as us, communinity responsables, local farmers and so on. So any well thought arguments are very needed.

[Bob Doneley]

The Mothers' Memorial in Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia was moved from a busy street intersection to a nearby park about 10 years ago.

Although the move was strongly condemned at the time - moving the memorial from the heart of the city was seen as disrespectful - the memorial's location means more people attend the Anzac Day services (2,000 - 3,000 people each year). Not only that, but it is common to see people at the memorial any time, reading the names, laying some flowers, etc - without any risk from, or interference to, the traffic.

Not sure if this is what you were after, but in the case of Toowoomba's Mothers' Memorial I feel the move has been a significant factor in remembering the young sons of Toowoomba who dies in all wars.

Bob

[chrisharley9]

March War Memorial was moved a few feet in the 60s due to road improvements but this really did not affect its central location - several times over the years the local authority has made proposals to move it either to the park or market place, but these have always met with opposition due to the local populations wish for it to remain in its very central location

Chris

[chrisharley9]

without any risk from, or interference to, the traffic.

Just the problem with the March Memorial - the only road thru town runs both sides of it

Chris

[geraint]

Gwernymynydd, Flintshire.

Small village on a long uphill road. The memorial was originally on the road outside the main village. It was moved three years ago a quarter of a mile downhill into the village center, outside the primary school. The original location now has a stone plaque stating that this was the location of the memorial.

Safety and convenience seems to be the main motivator

Geraint

[John_Hartley]

Two memorials near me have been moved - both traffic related.

One moved between WW1 & WW2; the other about 20 years ago.

The moves reflect the development of the areas from basically rural villages to modern suburbia.

John

[daggers]

Liverpool's Cotton Exchange memorial was moved in the 1960s when the building's classical frontage was replaced by a box-like edifice. 'Tommy', as the statue is known, was dismounted from his tall plinth and put on something smaller so that he could be seen from the road. Stone plaques with names of the fallen were removed and stored by the developer who later said they could not be replaced, and were subsequently lost.

Daggers

[Mercian Volunteer]

Don't forget about the relevantly recent move of CREWE ( Cheshire ) War Memorial in the town centre.

Steve

http://www.crewe.tv/2006/11/crewe-war-memorial.html

[Ice Tiger]

JVB

Have you contacted the War Memorials Trust to ask them of any examples & the reasons?

I could tell you about the memorial moved from a church into my house but that's probably not the sort of move you are after

Andy

[Tom Kilkenny]

Mercian Volunteer mentioned the recent relocation of Crewe's war memorial.

There was a very impressive campaign mounted by those who wanted it to remain where it was and I think it was, in the end, touch and go whether it would move at all. In the event it was moved and I have not heard anyone suggest that it doesn't look ten times better where it is now than where it was.

If the council are thinking about moving your local memorial the only suggestion I would make is that you look at their plans with an open mind. Sometimes change can be for the better!

Tom

[Eric91]

Southward, on the "Chemin des Dames", "Fusilliers Marins" monument was moved (approx. 200 meters) few years ago for a larger motorway building.

[slap42]

The Memorial Gates in St Georges, Telford were moved a few years back. They were at the entrance to the local park and they wanted to widen the gates to allow cars easier access. They moved them about 20 yards, putting the gates at the head of the main footpath through the park and replaced the original plaques with new ones at the same time.

[NigelS]

Tom Kilkenny (post # 14): "If the council are thinking about moving your local memorial the only suggestion I would make is that you look at their plans with an open mind. Sometimes change can be for the better!"

Woking's memorial got moved when the town centre underwent major redevelopment in the 70's; in its new location - well, not so new now - it takes pride of place as the central feature in a well used pedestrian square fronting the library and close to the civic offices. The original location was appropriate when the memorial was first built, but, with changes to the surrounding roads, buildings and the areas usage, today's location, is a far better one than had it remained where it was. Woking Council - which has frequently been criticised for its poor planning decisions over the last decades - did, at least in my opinion, manage to get it right on that occasion.

NigelS

[peterinkent]

A couple more

The RND memorial has been moved twice from Horse Guards to the back of the Naval College at Greenwich and then back again.

The Basrah War memorial was moved by Saddam out into the desert, which judging by the state of the two CWGC cemeteries in Basrah was probably a good thing, (Brits side of the road) all the grave markers knocked over and most gone, being used as a kids football/pitch mortar base plate area. Indian other side of the road just over grown with most grave markers damaged.

Peter

[Peter Shand]

Here in Kamloops, BC, Canada, the old cenotaph on a hillside site still stands, but the November 11th Veterans' Parade and Memorial Service has been relocated to a riverside park where there is a flat site, much more accessible to elderly marchers, and with more room for what seems to be a growing attendance. A new cairn has been built at the new site, but there are no plans to do away with the old memorial.

[shinglma]

The Lloyds Bank Memorial was moved from Lombard Street in the City of London to one of their buildings in Bristol. A new memorial was to be built in their new HQ building in Gresham Street in the City.

See this webpage for more details.

Mike S

[demaman]

Hello,

I would like to comment on the relocation of War Memorials. WW1 memorials like demarcation stones, battlefield markers of the 1st and 2nd US ID were erected by those who are - sadly enough - no longer amongst us. The problem with those "old" - sometimes - simple monuments - is that nobody maintains them anymore. The Battlefield markers of the 1st US ID are all gone but one at COEUVRES ET VALSERY near Soissons (there were 10, erected short after the war, in 1919). Eversince 1998 I try to save the "memorial". Almost 2 years ago the 1st US ID finaly got involved. But sofar nothing happened. We (WAR RELICS ARCHIVES) wanted to maintain the memorial on a VOLUNTARY BASIS, we had an agreement with the Mayor of the village ... and than, after 80 years, 1st Division rushed in ... Which means that all the things we tried to organise were invain.

Preserving the markers of the 2nd US ID is another story (24 such markers were ercted in 1919, they still exist but are in a poor shape). After 3 years - of making a lot of noise (by us) because ABMC wanted to "destroy them - the 2nd Division is willing to pay again for the maintenance of these simple monuments. Our plan was to move some of these concrete BOULDERS to the center of the villages involved (erect them next to the villages own war memorial) , if the village was volunteer to maintain the memorial. Now 2nd US ID rushed in, this is no longer an option. The idea was to let primary schools adopt the memorials (which is a idea we picked up in The Netherlands, and should be done everywhere).

In helping preserving - direct and indirect - 15 demarcation stones - it was sometimes better to move the marker. One example. A few years ago i was asked to go and identify a marker in the Alsace reagion. A few days later i sent a dossier to the Mayor of the village. He proposed to move the marker 1.5 kms from it's original standing place (!) ... But he guaranteed me the preservation of the small monument (which he did).

The marker stands in a square in between the school and the townhall ... every day, children, villagers, vistors stand face to face with the saved monument ...

Another example. The marker - demarcation stone - at (3 kms from the VIMY memorial) VIMY is in danger. I asked the superintended at VIMY to move the marker to the site, so in the future, perhaps, this marker would survive many of the others (3 such markers were payed for by Canada, Canadians who visit VIMY ridge aren't even aware of the exisistence of the small memorials). But it's not their intention to SAVE the (Canadian) demarcation stone(s), which i regret.

Don't get me wrong, i'm against moving memorials, just as a sport ... But if it means that the memorials can be preserved, for, another 40-50-60 years ... well I now what i would do ...

Yours Truly

Rik Scherpenberg aka demaman

[Chris Noble]

Le Point-du-Jour (Scottish) Memorial?

Moved, and now, unfortunately, we have 'lost' the original trench lines surrounding it.

The new location just doesn't seem the same after that.

Regards,

Chris.

[At Home Dad]

Hallo all

One of my local's, Harrow Green War Memorial, stands on what

is now (but wasn't then) a large 'traffic island/roundabout'.

This island, in a moat of never ending traffic, is guarded (rather like the

apes on the Rock of Gibraltar), by a host of Leyton & Leytonstone's

top brass wino's and crackheads.

It's location is precisely the reason it goes unnoticed by the public,

or worse, is looked upon as a place of filth and uninviting. This disdain

can also easily lead to it being knocked down without regret in the name

of a road widening scheme. Added to which the location is doing nothing

for the monument other than causing it to be fast eaten by pollution.

Any metal work will soon be stolen, and probably go unnoticed by most

drivers who dont look at it anyway, there's too much traffic and three

major junctions plus East London driving to contend with!

We have many parks and open spaces in very close proximity where it

could easily be moved to, and be made accessible to school children,

relatives and the mildly curious, etc.

I cannot think of a case against moving it.

Kind regards all!

[At Home Dad]

Harrow Green

[HERITAGE PLUS]

The War Memorial in Hanham Nr. Bristol where I live was moved on the 1950's from its original location in the centre of a 'T' Junction as 'it had become a danger to traffic' (although I think the reverse was probably the case!).

Its present location in the grounds of the Folk Centre at the end of a pathway with lawns on either side and entered by the 39-45 Memorial Gates is ideal.

Dave