Pegasus Gun ?

[Helen Bachaus]

Hi Harry, Thanks for the additional information. I didn't get round to my books on this topic (as I've both the said books) that Roop has requested and also I still need to say hello to Kevin in Africa.

Roop, may I ask please what sources you are using.

Take care guys and thanks again.

Helen

[KONDOA]

Hi Helen,

My source is one of a collection of letters and diaries from men of the Hull Heavy Battery RGA (11th Howitzer Battery) who were at Kondoa Irangi and Chenene etc.

If you go to my profile and click Gallery you will see some familiar places.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Roop

[Helen Bachaus]

Thanks Roop

[kallag]

Referring to this:

The four holed steel wheels of the Peggy gun on the LHS of the first Patience photograph appear to be of the same design as the steel wheels shown in my original post. Can this be? I was under the impression that the four holed wheels was a local, once off, design produced for the guns at Zanzibar shortly after its removal from the deck of the Pegasus.

Could the fact that the 4-inch Mark VII guns sent out by the Admiralty later on, had been provided with wheels either exactly the same, or very close to the Zanzibar design, indicate that the four holed wheel design was part of a standard Admiralty design?

I have just read the following in Britain's Sea Soldiers (Blumberg), page 395:

"Meanwhile all the other Royal Marines had been collected into one Battery

at Dar-es-Salaam which was organised in four sub-sections, each capable of acting

independently. Some reinforcements had been sent to Lindi to receive one of

the 4-inch guns which was sent there from Voi, and on 10th April, 1917. Captain

Ellison and Lieutenant Guy with one sub-section and equipment left Dar-es-Salaam

to join them. On their arrival they found that the gun had been fired with the

tampeon in, the muzzle was blown away and one man badly wounded. Ellison

with great initiative got four inches cut off the muzzle and brought the gun into

action and the German 4.1 inch gun was silenced as soon as the British gun opened

fire. This gun was fitted with narrow wheels, but Captain Ellison told the General

Officer Commanding that he had seen two wheels at Zanzibar which would be

very useful and these when brought over in H.M.S. Thistle and fitted proved

invaluable for the work."

Can it be that the gun shown in the pictures posted at the start of this thread is the one that is referred to in the Paragraph above?

Thanks to input provided earlier the gun in the pictures has been identified as a non-Peggy naval example. Given that the wheels are the same as the four holed wheels manufactured for the Peggy guns at Zanzibar, can the wheels be a spare set which which was then brought down in HMS Thistle to be fitted to the gun at Lindi?

Kalla

[KONDOA]

Kalla,

Given your paragraph above, it is possible this gun is the one referred to. It seems the muzzle is damaged compared with other photographs of similar guns.

 

Roop

[kallag]

Thanks Roop,

This is about as good as I can get of the barrel, the image is slightly out of focus. I'm no barrel expert but will try to compare to others if I can find good enough images.

Kalla

[cahoehler]

Guys

Some more questions than answers.

Another version of the images in posts 1& 2 http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?phrase="3271847"

It is very likely that one or more of the railway or harbour workshops (of what would post WW1 become the East African Railways and Harbours), could have had the skilled men and machine tools to build the steel disc wheels shown. There are not only 4-hole and 6-hole versions but the form of the ribs / spokes also varies (see also the Kevin Patience images and the Pegasus Gun at Mombasa). It would seem that as in the ABW these extemporized carriages have steel disc wheels of widely differing designs. British practice was to use wooden spoke wheels. The bore of the Pegasus Gun at Mombasa in post # 16 also appears to be closer to 3 inches than 4 inches but perspective and scale are funny old things.

In Chapter 32, Blumberg says the RMA took "four 4-inch and four 12 pr 18 cwt guns on field carriages to assist the South African Forces in the campaign against German S.W. Africa." These equipments were dismounted 4-inch BL naval guns and the newish 12 pr 18 cwt (3-inch 50 cal) anti-destroyer guns. The latter were upgraded versions of the old (but famous 'Long 12') 12 pr 12 cwt (3-inch 40 cal) and had been developed for the new battleships (Dreadnaught herself had 27 (or 24 or 22). The British 4-inch naval guns should not be confused with the German 10.5 cm naval guns. There were also 3 batteries of 4.7-inch QF naval guns in GSWA – some of actual ABW vintage and some with new carriages manufactured in the Salt River (Cape Town) workshops of the South African Railways. The ABW carriages were both of the extemporized and the howitzer versions. The 'Salt River' carriages have distinctive wide tyred steel disc wheels with 6 holes. Some or all of the 12 pr guns were also fitted with these 'Salt River' pattern wheels. There was also a battery of 4-inch QF naval guns from Hong Kong. The 4-inch BL, 4-inch QF, 4.7-inch QF guns and 6-inch howitzers accompanied the South African Heavy Artillery to England where they were swapped for the new 6-inch 26-cwt howitzers.

It is very likely that some of these pieces were in fact sent to Gallipoli (possibly Serbia as well) and others in fact could even have been recycled back to GEA.

The gun in post # 4 has the howitzer carriage but with wooden spoke wheels (possibly also of ABW vintage).

The gun in the top image of post # 10 was one of the 4.7-inch QF guns at Colenso in December 1899 and February 1900 – the other 4.7-inch QF gun had a long wooden trail with steel disc wheels but with 4 OFFSET holes. This is much like the 4.7-inch QF shown in the bottom image on the top of Swartkop (modern spelling) and is much like the image of a gun from HMS Monarch targeting one of the forts outside Pretoria in this image.

http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?phrase="3298008"

The wheels with 'triangular' holes in post # 12 look very much like those of the "The Princess Louise" on page 128 of Padfield's biography of Admiral Sir Percy Scott OR much like the wheels in image P04871.005 from the Australian War Memorial and which shows "An unidentified British Naval man with a British 4.7 inch naval gun" in the Boer War.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cst.acct_master?surl=888091909ZZZUDFGUSQJCM45331&stype=3&simplesearch=&v_umo=&v_product_id=&screen_name=&screen_parms=&screen_type=RIGHT&bvers=4&bplatform=Microsoft%20Internet%20Explorer&bos=Win32

Carl Hoehler

[kallag]

Carl,

You have added some interesting additional information thanks.

Included in your post you mention the following:

"There were also 3 batteries of 4.7-inch QF naval guns in GSWA – some of actual ABW vintage and some with new carriages manufactured in the Salt River (Cape Town) workshops of the South African Railways. The ABW carriages were both of the extemporized and the howitzer versions. The 'Salt River' carriages have distinctive wide tyred steel disc wheels with 6 holes. Some or all of the 12 pr guns were also fitted with these 'Salt River' pattern wheels. There was also a battery of 4-inch QF naval guns from Hong Kong. The 4-inch BL, 4-inch QF, 4.7-inch QF guns and 6-inch howitzers accompanied the South African Heavy Artillery to England where they were swapped for the new 6-inch 26-cwt howitzers."

I've attached an image taken in Simonstown Docks showing a 4.7" gun landed by HMS Doris for support of the British troops during the ABW. The wheels were designed by Captain Percy Scott and manufactured by the Simon's Town Dockyard artisans and reflects yet another version of steel discs fitted locally, this time sporting four offset holes.

Kalla

[cahoehler]

I've attached an image taken in Simonstown Docks showing a 4.7" gun landed by HMS Doris for support of the British troops during the ABW. The wheels were designed by Captain Percy Scott and manufactured by the Simon's Town Dockyard artisans and reflects yet another version of steel discs fitted locally, this time sporting four offset holes.

Kallag

One of the best pictures I have seen (and I have seen many).

This is very likely the real "Joe Chamberlain" that was at Magersfontein. One of the batteries in GSWA has very similiar wheels but with 8 holes that are now symmetrical.

I am halfway thro' my 'catalogue of differences' and would like to use this image. You can send me a PM with the attribution required and source.

Carl

[kallag]

I have no firm evidence that any Koenigsbeg guns were at Kondoa Irangi and have comment to the contrary gained from German prisoners.

Roop

It has been a while since we have discussed the guns in German East Africa. In fact, it is difficult to believe that we are in 2010 already. I hope it is a good year for all.

I have stumbled upon a most interesting discussion on the Konigsberg guns on a German forum called Panzer-Archiv (thread " http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=9020").

Although I do not speak German, using an online translation facility offered me the opportunity to follow some of the discussion. What I found very interesting were the reference(s) to the Konigsberg guns at Kondoa in a table under the title of 'Geschützliste'. The statement made by Roop (quoted above) came to mind. I think this provides very good evidence, don't you think?

Kallag

[Ithklur]

It has been a while since we have discussed the guns in German East Africa. In fact, it is difficult to believe that we are in 2010 already. I hope it is a good year for all.

I have stumbled upon a most interesting discussion on the Konigsberg guns on a German forum called Panzer-Archiv (thread " http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=9020").

Although I do not speak German, using an online translation facility offered me the opportunity to follow some of the discussion. What I found very interesting were the reference(s) to the Konigsberg guns at Kondoa in a table under the title of 'Geschützliste'. The statement made by Roop (quoted above) came to mind. I think this provides very good evidence, don't you think?

Kallag

Hello

I am the original inventor of this thread and in conjunction with Holger Kotthaus we tried to examine the origins of  some KBG gun pictures

HERE (Geschützliste): 

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.ph...18380382#175221

you find copies of original manuscripts from Ludwig Boell who shows the whereabouts of the guns

There is no doubt there was a KBG gun at Kondoa Irangi

If there are questions about this thread please ask

cheers

Olav

[kallag]

Olav,

Thanks for your reply.

What a great job you and Holger have done!!. Congratulations.

I have one or two questions and will start with the following:

The Konigsberg gun captured at Bagamoyo is often shown in a photograph where the gun is displayed together with other guns and cannons in front of a building. The picture is given as fig. 16 in your Panzer discussion. I have attached a similar image here (Bagamoyo 1). Every time these pictures are seen in publications, the gun is referred to as the Bagamoyo gun. Nowhere have I seen a caption which suggests that the picture was actually taken in Bagamoyo however. Can it be that the picture was taken elsewhere, perhaps Zanzibar, after the gun was removed from Bagamoyo.

I am also attaching a picture taken in front of that same building (Bagamoyo2) but without the Konigsberg gun (and other captured guns). I know that the picture was taken by a soldier during WW1 but not whether it was before the fall of Bagamoyo or after removal of the captured guns. The same cannon shown in the Bagamoyo 1 photo is reflected here. There are also many other guns in front of the building which seem to indicate that this building must have been some Government or other important Office. The interesting thing is that the original picture caption given with Bagamoyo 2 photograph says "CANNON ZANZIBAR".

Now to my question. Do we know that the Konigsberg gun photograph was in fact taken in Bagamoyo shortly after the gun was captured or can it be that the picture was indeed taken in Zanzibar, as suggested in the second photograph? I suppose that if we know which building it is that is depicted in the two photographs, we should know where it was taken.

Bagamoyo 1

Bagamoyo 2

Looking forward to your comments....

Kallag

[KONDOA]

Kallag et al,

Yes, interesting material.

The Konigsberg gun at Kondoa left apaprently after a relatively short time and I understand that by June that it was the guns landed by the Reubens that were the main German armament at Kondoa.

Roop

[Ithklur]

Hello

Thanks for the compliments 

kallag, interesting question

regarding to my sources the first picture was taken at bagamoyo shortly after capture

thus, the second has to be there, too

I will do some additional investigation towards the building in the background but for me

it looks like inside the old Fort

kondoa, your are right

when the first barrel was destroyed by barrel burst, the howitzers were the main artillery pieces 

I´m not sure, if, when and how long the "replacement gun" was in action at Kondoa-Irangi

must have a look in some sources at home

cheers 

Olav

[KONDOA]

Olav,

My notes indicate that German artillery went quiet on the 22nd June, after lively exchanges on the 21st Juneduring which time a German gunpit was destroyed. The infantry attacked the German positions on the 25th June at which time "no enemy artillery against us".

Roop

[Ithklur]

Roop,  just to add some detail:

Till 8^th Juni  the Schutztruppe had alltogether 1 x 10,5 cm KBG gun, 2 x 10,5 cm Howitzers, 

1 x  8,8 cm gun, 2 x 7,5 cm mountain guns and 1 x 6 cm gun at Kondoa-Irangi

 It was the first and the last time Lettow  had artillery superiority in this campaign

Interestingly, most of these guns came to the Schutztruppe after the outbreak of war: The 8,8cm

was given armament for an  auxilliary cruiser, the 10,5 cm gun later scavenged from the KBG, 

The howitzers and mountain guns came from blockade runner Marie (ex Dacre Hill)

The 10,5 cm KBG gun was disabled at May 18^th by barrel burst.

Between Juni 6^th and 13^th Lettow received the replacement Barrel from Kigoma

This Gun went finally back to Tabora at the end of Juni 

 

Between July 20^th and 23^rd Lettow  reduced Artillery to 1 x 10.5cm, 1 x 8.8 cm and 1 x 6 cm when he

was forced to counter Smuts further advance in the north, the remaining troops (and guns) were ordered

to fall back and fight only rearguard actions

 

Hope this helps

cheers

Olav

 

 

[KONDOA]

Thank you Olav, looks like we have it pinned down fairly accurately.

Roop

[Ithklur]

On 25/12/2007 at 17:22, bushfighter said:

 

Have you any comment on the two Pegasus guns captured by the Schutztruppe at Ngominyi?

We have been discussing these in thread:

 

Hello

Holger and me trying to unveil the exact type of gun captured at Ngominyi

To date we found out these facts:

Ludwig Boell P.198/Footnote 4)

Northey 20.05.1916

2 x 7,5-cm (von „Pegasus")

6 x 6-cm

6 x 7,5-cm Erhardt

1 x 7,5-cm B.S.A.P.

we were able to identify the following guns:

7,5-cm Erhardt

7,5-cm B.S.A.P. (lt. Inspector-General of Overseas Forces 1912 Report: "75mm QF gun")

6,0-cm are 2,5-inch 7-pdr RML „Screw Guns"

but the „Naval Guns"?:

Boell wrote 7,5-cm von HMS Pegasus, means 3-pdr

but also 7,6-cm

The War Diary of the Schutztruppe states 7,9-cm, Armstrong guns

Vizefeldwebel d. R. Pfeiffer, Zugführer in der 8. F.K. states Marinegeschütze vom englischen Kreuzer Hyazinth (Naval guns from Cruiser HMS Hyacinth)

Full discussion here:

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8981&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

If there is need for translation, please ask

Has anyone here some additional informations?

cheers

Olav

Sources

Ludwig Boell/Die Operationen in Ostafrika

Colin Martin/Cpl Haussmann goes to war

Rob Burrett/The Search for the May Jackson/ SA Military History Journal

J.G. Maker/ Narrative 5th SAMB/SA Military History Journal - Vol 4 No 2

R.W.M. Langham/Northern Rhodesia Journal Vol II,III,IV

Review Article/ Northern Rhodesia Journal Vol V

Kevin Patience/Salvaging the Pegasus guns

[KZNChris]

Hello

I am the original inventor of this thread and in conjunction with Holger Kotthaus we tried to examine the origins of some KBG gun pictures

HERE (Geschützliste):

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.ph...18380382#175221

you find copies of original manuscripts from Ludwig Boell who shows the whereabouts of the guns

There is no doubt there was a KBG gun at Kondoa Irangi

If there are questions about this thread please ask

cheers

Olav

Hi Olav ,

I had a quick look at your link -- you have some really good stuff over there. ( I can get a German word here and there

I have been trying to look at German sources ( not that I know much German , but it is an essential part of the history. )

I assume that Ludwig Boll's book

Die Operationen in Ostafrika, Weltkrieg 1914-1918

is out of copyright ?

Hard copies are available but at HORRENDOUS prices. <cry>

If so where could I find a place to download it -- been looking but no find so far.

Any suggestions much appreciated.

[Ithklur]

Hi

Boell is out of copyright, but there is no downloadable source

I paid about 260 Euro for my own hardcopy

But it´s worth every cent, as it´s by far the best narrative for the german point of view

regards

Olav

[KZNChris]

Hi

Boell is out of copyright, but there is no downloadable source

I paid about 260 Euro for my own hardcopy

But it´s worth every cent, as it´s by far the best narrative for the german point of view

regards

Olav

Hi Olav

Thank you for your reply.

You are very lucky --the prices I have seen online are more like EU 500 --> 700 ( UK prices similar )

Perhaps someone at the Bundesarchiv might be persuaded to make an online copy available ?????

I am not a book collector ( or a millionaire ) just interested in the information provided by the content .

[kallag]

Way back in 2007 this thread started with the question, "1)What was the largest gun used in the East African campaign?"

Well, thanks to the various contributions to this thread it seems safe to say that there were the 4.7inch QF guns, the 4inch Naval guns from the Pegasus, the 4.1 inch guns from the Konigsberg and nothing larger.

That brings me to another question. The picture attached shows an unexploded 12inch shell photographed in Dar es Salaam during the campaign. Would this represent the largest Naval munition fired into the coastal areas of GEA?

Regards

Kallag

[kallag]

Hi Folks,

Been a while since the Konigsberg guns were discussed last.

I noted a very interesting photograph on the Imperial War Museum site which depicts a gun which has a striking resemblance to the Konigsberg gun discussed in this Forum previously.

I'm not sure whether the IWM photograph may be copied here, please therefore view the image at: http://blogs.iwm.org...45x385-q036932/

The gun in the IWM photograph very closely matches the Bagamoyo example given above with the barrel, gun shield and wheel design the same.

Can it be that the IWM has in it's inventory a Konigsberg example?. Or is the gun in the IWM photograph simply a remarkably close match which is not linked to German East Africa?

Regards and best for 2013

Kallag

PS. I have posted the same message under the topic Konigsberg Guns (started by Helen Bachaus way back in 2007)......this is however contained in the Eastern Front section of the Forum......can the Moderators not move the thread back to where it belongs.

[bushfighter]

Kallag

Happy New Year

Interesting question.

I believed that the location of all the Konigsburg guns had been accounted for.

Maybe the IWM has a similar land-mounted ex-naval gun from another theatre?

(I would PM the Administration to get the Konigsburg Gun thread put back into Sub-Saharan Africa - I can see that there was an error based on geography.)

Harry

[kallag]

Thanks Harry,

I will contact the IWM tomorrow and see if there is more information available about the gun in the picture.......can it be that the gun shield and wheels of the IWM and Bagamoyo guns were standard/stock items shipped to where ever there was a need?

Would be very interesting to hear what the IWM has to say about the gun in their picture.

Kallag