232 Siege Battery

[finkill]

I am trying to trace the movements of the 232 Siege Battery RGA from 1914 – 1916 – can anyone help?

[daggers]

Welcome to the Forum.

Frederick's 'Lineage Book...' says that 232 Siege Bty was formed as part of the New Army on 12.8.1916 at Liverpool and disbanded on 31.5.1919 at Ripon. There are probably more knowledgeable members who will be able to add to this. If you are interested in an individual soldier, it is worth putting up as much information as you have - it is amazing what is contributed here.

Daggers

[tjec]

Hi, Welcome to the Forum, there is a tremendous amount of knowledge available here.

My Grandfather was BQMS with 232. He enlisted in the L & C RGA in 1911 and on 16.1.16 he transferred to L&C Crosby Battery, then on 1.9.16 he transferred to 232 'C' Battery, it looks like 232 were formed in Formby around that time and remained there until they left for France. Crosby Point Battery, is on the south side of Altcar rifle range

Orokorp kindly sent me this information;

232 SB, consisted originally of 4 x 6 in Howitzers (26 cwt) and went out to France, 18/1/1917. They joined 50 HAG 22/1/17; then on to 64 HAG 28/2/17; to 44 HAG 16/4/17; to 2 HAG 26/4/17; to 14 HAG 13/5/17; to 43 HAG 30/6/17; to 40 HAG 10/7/17; to 4 HAG 3/9/17; to 9 HAG 6/9/17; back to 14 HAG 6/11/17; and finally to 93 HAG 17/12/17 with on subsequent changes. If you look on the NA catalogue and substitute Brigade for HAG you will find most of these diaries, without any ‘th’ or ‘nd’ after the numbers. It was made up to 6 guns in Oct 1917 with personnel joining from 436 SB.

Regards Paul

Hope this is helpful. What is your interest in 232?

Regards,

Norman

[finkill]

Thanks for taking time with fast reponse I am really trying to trace my grandfather Andrew Finkill Service No. 162488 in the 232 Seige Battery. I believe that his service record is no longer in existence so I hoped I could trace his involvement in WW1 by following his unit. From information passed down the family which may not be accurate he enlisted at 16 served in France - possibly the Somme?? was gassed and wounded in head and was in hospital? in Paris? for approx 3 months and then discharged. This was believed to have occurred between 1914-16 but this seems impossible as his unit did not arrive in France until 1917.

I would be grateful if you are able to supply anything to clarify my search

regards

shirley

[finkill]

Norman

Being new to the Forum I hope I am not repeating myself with this reply but I will learn one way or the other. Thanks for taking time with fast reponse and I found the information interesting and informative and it has already added to my knowledge. I thought he was in France between 1914 -16 but the battery was not. I am really trying to trace my grandfather Andrew Finkill Service No. 162488 in the 232 Seige Battery. I believe that his service record is no longer in existence so I hoped I could trace his involvement in WW1 by following his unit. From information passed down the family which may not be accurate he enlisted 1914 at 16 served in France - possibly the Somme?? was gassed and wounded in head and was in hospital? in Paris? for approx 3 months and then discharged. I would be grateful if you could point me towards ways of getting further information, once again thanks for time.

regards

shirley

[tjec]

Hello Shirley,

I have checked his medal card at the National Archives and on his Medal Card he seems to have been awarded two medals, the Victory Medal and the British War Medal, which generaly indicates he did not serve in France/Flanders during 5 August 1914 to 31 December 1915. However, if like many others he did not declare his true age (16 is young to serve overseas) he may also have given other information that was incorrect. This can result in many avenues having to be explored, before all is revealed. Good luck in your research.

Regards,

Norman

[tjec]

By the way, GF was given a new number, 128655 on his transfer on 16.01.16, which is 33833 less than 162488, and somebody (with superb research knowledge) will be able to let us know when the numbers were issued! Just watch this space.

Regards,

Norman

[kevinrowlinson]

His number, 162488, would indicate a Gunner finalising his enlistment at the start of June 1917, unusually, at South Camp, Ripon. He could have attested via the Derby Scheme as early as Nov. 1915, but the June 1917 is when he started his service with the RGA. If he did serve before this time then he could have been dismissed for being underage, or by not being fit for military service, and later re-enlisting, or by being transferred which I think in this instance is unlikely.

Regards Kevin

[finkill]

Thanks once again for the time given, the information is extremely helpful, most interesting and offers several more questions. I assume GF = Gunner Finkill.

Is there a reason for changing his number ? When checking his new number on the medal records, 2 different names appear for the RGA –T.J. Courtice / T.J.E. Courtie, who I suspect are the same person as same rank , but not GF Finkill. However the medal records do show him with his original number

I had never heard of the Derby Scheme but it could apply as he lived in Northallerton which is quite near Ripon.

His number suggests that he started service June 1917 but it appears that the 232 Siege Brigade left for France on 18/1/17 would he join them after training? Are there records to confirm him at South Camp?

Thanks again

Shirley

[tjec]

Oop's sorry for the confusion, GF = my Grandfather. When he first joined his number was 575, when he transferred on 16 May 1916 he was given the number 128655. On 31 March 1920 he was given the number 1662896. You are correct about the two Medal Index cards, they are both his.

Regards,

Norman

[kevinrowlinson]

Unless you have further evidence there is no reason to assume he did change numbers and he enlisted when I said. He could have joined 232 SB at any time after training. His medal index card (MIC) is at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1 . You can download this for £3.50, but may not add much to your research, but until you get it you will never know. Best place to start is at the Long Long Trail linked at the top of this page which will help to explain the best way to research a soldier. To see whether his service records survived would mean a visit to the National Archives, or wait until all the records are avaiable online at Ancestry. co.uk.

Regards Kevin

[finkill]

thank you

The National Archives have been searched and their is no service record availible and I have a copy of the medal card and you are correct it was little use . It was for this reason I thought I would try and trace his movements via his battery. The posts have provided me with new information that which I hope may open avenues of research

regards

shirley

[tjec]

This is the position of 232 during June/July 1917 courtesy of essdee (another of the members)

[tjec]

And this is 232 position in October 1917 (again courtesy of essdee). I visited these positions Easter this year (GF was transferred to 196 Battery)

[tjec]

This is the approximate position of 232 in September 1917, also visited earlier this year. The picture is courtesy of CROONAERT, another member of the Forum.

[finkill]

The maps of the positions of the “232” are excellent, they seem to provide just what I wanted, locations where my GF may have served. I have been looking on the internet to try and work out which battles were being fought in that area at that time. Am I right in thinking that it would be the 3^rd Battle of Ypres for the last 2 maps?

It must be interesting actually being there – is that the place where the reconstructed trench is situated?

I came across an Advanced Dressing Station sited near at Essex Farm. My GF was wounded in action is there any possibility that they would have kept records or would life be too hectic?

Shirley

[essdee]

Shirley

I've added a couple of extra bits to my original map for 232.

During Sept & Oct'17, 232 were part of the 93rd HAG (heavy Artillery Group) 5th Army, having transferred from 40th HAG 3rd Army.

232's Code name was HABIT with the code S1. S Group or 93rd HAG, was the Northern Counter Battery Group for 14 Corps Heavy Artillery and as its name implies was involved in destroying/neutralizing enemy batteries.

In Nov'17 232 are transferred to 14th HAG, the left Bombardment Group for 14 Corps HA, 5th Army. This is P Group and the have the code P4 retaining the code name HABIT. At this time, 10/11/17, a guard is left on their guns in their C2d position and they man the guns of 290 Siege battery, who are out to rest. I then have them again as of 4/12/17 in the U27d position with six guns.

If you are looking at books/maps etc look at 5th Army 14 Corps and from early Nov 19 Corps. 14 Corps Heavy Artillery from this point acted as the Heavy Artillery for 19 Corps. The norm was for the 14 Corps HA to work with the 14 Corps troops but on odd occasions another Corps Artillery would be substituted temporarily.

Stuart

[tjec]

Hello Shirley,

Stuart has just kick started my brain, I have some pages of the 40th and 93rg HAG war diaries for 1917. If you send me a personal message with your e-mail address, I will send the file copies to you this weekend.

Hi Stuart,

Would you like a copy?

Regards to you both,

Norman

[finkill]

Stuart

Thanks for update it is very useful

regards

Shirley

[essdee]

Shirley/Norman

Following the decision to relieve tired batteries of the 5th Army, orders of the 24th Aug’17 were issued to allow for the gradual transfer of batteries to the 5th Army area.

The 1st Echelons of the selected batteries left the 3rd Army between the 27th Aug and the 7th Sept. the 1st Echelon of 232, HQ & one section, left 40th HAG, 3rd Army on the 31st Aug. On the 3rd Sept 232 Siege’s remaining section was transferred to 4th HAG 3rd Army, this appears to be just an administrative move.

On the 8th Sept. 207 Siege took over the guns and position of 232 Siege, then on the 14th Sept the remaining section of 232 Siege, personnel only, left for 14 Corps, 5th Army.

The attached map is 232 Siege’s position as of 16th Sept’17.

Stuart

ps

Norman, when were they in Square B5 as shown in your map ?

[finkill]

Stuart

thanks for information I am trying to put the map references into the context of a wider area. Is there a military map showing the map reference nos. etc used for a larger sector?

shirley

[essdee]

Shirley

I understand your problem, putting one trench map square into context with respect to the front as a whole is a bit difficult. However, a complete map works out to be about 10.5 Mb which is far to large to upload onto the Forum. Ebenezer Baker limits uploads to 100kb.

Have a look here www.pathsofglory.co.uk/

Stuart

[tjec]

Dear Stuart,

The location B5c 80.85 is the location of 21SB on 6 September 1917 taken from the 93HAG war diary. I knew 232, my GF's Battery, was very close and at the time (Easter this year) was the best location I had. Your position is a little closer to Ypers than I imagined, but when I visited the area I did drive past the point you indicated for 232 on the 16th Sept’17 (still theres always next year). Quite a moving experience actually, even not knowing the correct map reference. Did get to the exact spots for 196 and 232 you also gave me.

93 HAG diary pages I have will be sent shortly (the Guvner keeps asking me to do other things).

Regards,

Norman

[essdee]

Norman

I have details from the 1st and 16th Sept and the only battery of 14 Corps HA in square B5 was.... 196 Siege.

As 232 took over the postion of 207 Siege, they didn't have to spend time preparing gun pits and secondly what were they doing until the second section arrived ? relieved half of 207 or manning another batteries guns ? A lot of this kind of thing went on, relieving tired gun crews and moving into a new position by sections.

Stuart

[finkill]

Stuart

I appreciate the problem with size of file + uploading, have visited web site you suggested and is very useful, I think now I need to find when my GF was in France. Thanks for all your work

Happy New Year

Shirley