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Remembered Today:

Battle of Arras 1917


fritz

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Hello,

nice to see your latest pics, Jim. Just now at the 91st anniversary of this battle.

At the church must be more concret dug-outs.

In "Cheerful Sacrifice" I read this:

In the centre (of N V) the 8th Middlesex also ran into uncut wire but managed to force their way into the village and when they reached the site of the destroyed church they found a strong pocket of Germans who had emerged from deep caverns, into a final redoubt of sandbacks, well protected with rolls of wire. They were the survivers of 163 Infantry Regiment and were determined to sell their lives dearly. They were soon surrounded and mercilessly showered with bombs. Just before 11 a.m. sixty-eight survivors with four machine guns from this redoubt surrendered. Neuville Vitasse was in British hands.

The Regimental History of I.R. 163 recorded:

The enemy continued the assault against Neuville-Vitasse with battalions in four waves. Exasperated fight with the 11th company of Leutnant Jenz lasted ten minutes or so; explosions of hand grenades and infantry shooting could be heared. A hard fighting hand-to-hand commenced. Ten minutes and then Leutnant Jenz with his men was defeated. Out-flanked of all sides they fought their last despairing fight in the remains of Neuville. Nearly nobody of the companies in the front-line returned. They fought and persevered at forlorn post till their end. Also the brave machine-gunners and mortar-men fought under command of Lt. Kalepky till they were overpowered. Lt. Kalepky died, only some men could escape. At 10 Neuville was in Englisg hands.

Lt. Kalpky`s grave is at St. Laurent-Blangy. He is buried in this large mass-grave together with nearly 25 000 others.

Regards

Fritz

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Here another pic of the bunker at Bois de la Vigne

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I was there on the Easter monday,Jim but didn't see the flowers or any visitors.

Cant believe you have a place so close to ours!

I have some Monchey pics if you wish to see them.I know theyre not 100% to this thread but the lead in to Monchey from here,Happy Valley then Monchey just expands the view of this area that I always try to 'publicise' to the folks that would just normally head down to the Somme :glare: .

An area not to be missed!

Dave.

Hi Dave

I have followed this thread for a while with interest. I note you say you have some Monchy pics. I would be very interested in any you have of the area just to the NE of Monchy Wood between the two lanes which both go towards Pelves, an area occupied by the 10th West Yorks around the 12/14th April 1917, and where my Grt Uncle George Verity was probably fatally wounded.

Many Thanks

Richard

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Hiya,Richard.

I'm trying to sort out Monchey pics at the mo' but,After 7 years of going ,there's a lot!

Trouble is,I have half of them in France on the computer & some here in with other stuff.

I'll get them on here when I can but please send me a Geo portail link,or a trench map of all that you want & I can always take new photos of exactly where you want.

I'll be there next week if all goes to plan.

Dave.

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Hi Dave

Thanks for your reply, would love to see the area myself but don't know when I can get there.

I am hopefully (never done this before) attaching a sketchmap of the area of interest, the position occupied by the 10th west Yorks is the line shown as being occupied by the Northumberland Fusiliers (thanks to Jim Smithson for this)

I hope that ties it down for you, if not I have a google map but I think I would need to PM that to you (won't download to here).

Please let me know if you need any more info & thanks for your help in advance.

Richardpost-17246-1207777967.jpg

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  • 3 months later...
  • 3 months later...

[Telbo - 7th November 2008 11.08 AM

Hello All

I have been following the thread in the previous pages and have found it really interesting, I am looking for some help with the battle around Neuville-Vitasse to the south of Arras during April/May 1917. My wife's great uncle - Cpl Edwin Charles Allen 282360 of the 4th Bn London Regiment Royal Fusiliers died on the 15th May 1917 and is buried in London Cemetery, Neuville Vitasse.

It may be that he took part in the actions either on the 9th April 1917 or the weeks leading into May when he was wounded and died later on the 15th May 1917, could someone please point me in the right direction to clarify his part in the battle at this time.

I have seen references to the London Regiment in this area and would like to identify the ground where Edwin fought and was wounded if possible, we had a very brief visit with the help of Leger guide Mark Hope, to the London Cemetery in September this year and are planning to return next year for a much longer visit to walk around the battle area.

Many thanks in anticipation of a response.

Telbo

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Hi Telbo

A very warm welcome to the Forum. I will try and give you some idea of the area and proceedings over the next couple of days. The difficulty for placing Edwin's progress and possible wounding or death is the nature of 4th Bn's involvement. For example on the 9th they were in reserve of 168th Brigade apart from 1 company (B Coy) who were to act a 'moppers up' for the Kensingtons. The remainder of the battalion were then placed under 167th Brigade and advanced later in the day. Casualty figures for the day were 3 officers and 21 O.R. which shows the relatively low level of activity for the battalion. More work in succeeding days was in line for the battalion but pinpointing Edwin is therefore difficult. His date of death and place of burial does point to a later wounding, however, to complicate matters further London Cemetery was extended after the war by concentrations form other remote cemeteries, meaning he could have been moved! You see how difficult it can be. As a taster, the next post is a photo of the area attacked by the 12th & 13th Londons on the morning of the 9th for whom B Coy will have been mopping up.

Jim

post-28845-1226091244.jpg

Area attacked by the 12th London

post-28845-1226091307.jpg

Across area attacked by 13th London.

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Here is a modern map with some trenches marked that I used in another thread. You can see the cemetery on the second photograph on the left to get your bearings.

post-28845-1226091581.jpg

I don't have nay more time tonight but will try to add some more over the weekend.

Jim

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Hi Telbo

The fact that he is buried in plot III could well means he was not originally buried there. You might want to find out from CWCG where he was originally buried. That might give more clues if it wasn't London Cem.

In the meantime here are links to other threads that might interest you.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...euville+Vitasse

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...euville+Vitasse

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...euville+Vitasse

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;#entry1044725

Jim

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Hello Jim

Very many thanks for your response and the imformation within. I was not aware of the significance of the Row position in relation to the buriel, I had thought that Edwin had died in an adjacent ADS and was then buried at this location. I shall certainly follow up on the leads you have given me and report on my progress in due course.

As a matter of interest I did receive a PM from "Londongirl" advising that her Gt Grandfather was in the 4th Bn Lon. Reg. he also had died on the 15th MaY 1917 and is commemorated in the Arras Memorial bay 9, I wonder if the two were linked in action but for some reason seperated after wounding or death.

Many thanks for you help and interest

Telbo

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Hello Jim

I have contacted CWGC as you advised and they tell me that with the large amount of queries they currently are working through it will take six weeks to provide any further information so I must just be patient. Is there any reading matter or obtainable information that I could study in the meantime on the 4th Bn London Regiment in the Arras battle area?

I find the Arras battlefield very interesting and somewhat ignored in relation to the areas which most people have come to associate with the Great War, it really is a poor cousin.

Your old postcard photographs were poured over for ages there is so much to see in them, thanks for the link. The airbourne photographs from stiletto 33853 show so clearly how shells and bombs have brought up the underlying chalk almost as if it was painted on the photo, just out of interest where did the Allies dump all of the vast quanitiy of chalk that they dug out of the tunnels etc, it would have stood out for miles from the air if they had dumped it anywhere near to where they were working.

Thanks again for your responses

Telbo

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Hello again Telbo

Please let me know if you do find a connection, as both men died on 15 May it might be possible they were together. i hope so!

Thanks

Londongirl

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I'm trying to find more details on action around the Arras area on 11th April 1917 when my great uncle Clarence Percival Dufton (242059) Died. He served with the 2/6 West Yorkshire Regiment (62nd Div of 185 battn). I started a new post on this only to find a thread already existed - can someone let me know how to delete the other post please.

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I've replied on the other post and, as it's specifically about Bullecourt, maybe interesting to leave that new one running.

Jim

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Thanks Jim, I'm just conscious not to be seen flooding, but I will leave the other one going.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi Jim

I took up your kind advice about the CWGC who have at last given me a refrence for where Edwin was

initially buried and I am waiting for a trench map that I have ordered to be delivered so I can pinpoint

the origibnal burial site. The London's war Diaries show that he may well have been injured on the 12th May

near Monchy le Preux so I may be getting closer to resolving these details.

Many thanks again for your interest and help with my queries .

Regards Telbo

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Telbo

Missed this post. If you give me the reference I could post an image of a trench map showing where it is. Pity I missed this as I have just come back from the area (a house to look after) and given a reference could have tried to photograph the spot. Maybe if you get our there some day it will match with one of my trips and I can show you around.

Jim

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Hi Jim

Thanks for your reply, the reference is 51b U 23 c2.4 and you have already helped me

with this thanks very much, it is beside the road from Bullecourt to Riencourt, Edwin was

apparently found with some Aussie soldiers quite close to the Cross Memeorial. Edwin

was in the 4th Bn London Regiment Royal Fusiliers, their War Diiaries show that they were

fighting to the SW of Monchy "in the trenches in front of Serre" I cannot find Serre on

any maps even those with trench names, do you have any ideas where or what Serre is.

I also cannot understand how Edwin was so far from his Regmt. unless he had been

posted to serve with another unit or division for at the time of his death (15.5.17) his

Regmt. were marching back to reserve billets. I have a copy of the Battlefield Guide for

Bullecourt which only appears to have Aussies fighting at this location with no mention of

the "Londons".

Any thoughts you have would be appreciated.

Again, many thanks Telbo :huh:

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Hi Jim

I forgot to ask you if you have any B&Bs or similar that you could recommend that we

could use in the SE of Arras, that would be useful for visiting the area.

Thanks Telbo

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Telbo

Where he was found has I think solved a problem. Because he was in London Cemetery you have thought he was with 1/4 London's who attacked form there on 9th April. He was, however, more likely with 2/4 or 3/4th London's of 58th Division. This division began to take over the line from the Australian 15th Infantry Brigade on the 13th May and 2/4th London's were placed in position east of the village of Bullecourt from a sunken crossroads for 500 yards to the east - that puts the right flank almost directly on the memorial. The regiment found itself under severe bombardment throughout the 14th and 15th with a strong attack on the 15th beaten off with the help of artillery fire. That evening the regiment was relieved after suffering 2 officers killed, 2 wounded plus 68 O.R.s killed, 196 wounded and 2 missing. I think you can be fairly certain that Edwin died very near to where he was (originally) buried and that he was in the 2/4th London Regiment. I have the history of the 4th London's so if you would like extracts from the book I will be delighted to get them to you.

I will PM you with a suggestion for accommodation.

Jim

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I forgot to ask you if you have any B&Bs or similar that you could recommend that we

could use in the SE of Arras, that would be useful for visiting the area.

Good morning Telbo,

we had been here

http://www.ostel-les-3luppars.com/index2.htm

Nice old house with good accommodation and service. The advantage is the central situation in the heart of Arras. And by car there is no problem to achieve the South-East.

Kind regards

Fritz

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Telbo

Where he was found has I think solved a problem. Because he was in London Cemetery you have thought he was with 1/4 London's who attacked form there on 9th April. He was, however, more likely with 2/4 or 3/4th London's of 58th Division. This division began to take over the line from the Australian 15th Infantry Brigade on the 13th May and 2/4th London's were placed in position east of the village of Bullecourt from a sunken crossroads for 500 yards to the east - that puts the right flank almost directly on the memorial. The regiment found itself under severe bombardment throughout the 14th and 15th with a strong attack on the 15th beaten off with the help of artillery fire. That evening the regiment was relieved after suffering 2 officers killed, 2 wounded plus 68 O.R.s killed, 196 wounded and 2 missing. I think you can be fairly certain that Edwin died very near to where he was (originally) buried and that he was in the 2/4th London Regiment. I have the history of the 4th London's so if you would like extracts from the book I will be delighted to get them to you.

I will PM you with a suggestion for accommodation.

Jim

Jim

Your knowledge continues to astound me, is the history you have "the War History ofthe

4th Bn London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers)" by Capt Clive Grimwade, as I have already requested

a copy by interlibrary, thanks for your offer; does this book cover the 1/4, 2/4 and 3/4 Londons.

If our visits coincide I would much enjoy meeting you and discussing the Arras offensives

and our common interests in this period.

We had prevoiusly taken a Leger Battlefields tour which gave us a very brief but tantilising glimpse

of the Arras area and we were deternined to return to have a proper walk around the area and

follow Edwins path around the battlefieds.

I have had a look at Fritz's accomodation suggestion and await your PM on alternatives.

Thanks again for your help Kindest regards Telbo :huh:

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I forgot to ask you if you have any B&Bs or similar that you could recommend that we

could use in the SE of Arras, that would be useful for visiting the area.

Good morning Telbo,

we had been here

http://www.ostel-les-3luppars.com/index2.htm

Nice old house with good accommodation and service. The advantage is the central situation in the heart of Arras. And by car there is no problem to achieve the South-East.

Kind regards

Fritz

Hi Fritz

Thanks for your Post, the hotel website looks quite interesting, I am also awaiting a PM from Jim

with his suggestions for accomodation; I have followed the thread with your obvious interests

and will make a point of visiting the sites you have indicated on our next visit to the area.

Thanks and best wishes Telbo :D

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I loved this Thread so much that subsequent to a walk around the 21st Div area for 9th to 12th April 1917 I thought that I would share some of the finds from the walk. I went up the usual lane from Heninel towards the cemeteries but turned right towards the motorway because I wanted the line of the Hindenburg Line. Just before the turn left at the motorway I looked at the field to my right and saw this.

post-28845-1235419437.jpg

Seeing a field with so many earthworks and the piles of wood I had to have a nosey :ph34r:

I cannot be 100% sure but I am almost convinced that each of the piles of wood as on top of a concrete emplacement of some kind.

A closer look at the 'piles of wood'

post-28845-1235419650.jpg

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