hudsonswhistle Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Hi i purchased this old postcard today,Does anyone know what happened to this memorial and where exactly was it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Melted down for WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 12 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Melted down for WW2? Is that a guess, or was that the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Interesting to see it is called Fearless; don't think it was its original name as the Mark IV "Fearless" was male and this one isn't S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hansen Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Is it possible to get a better scan of the rear? The WD number is visible but I can only make out the first two numbers (20??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Here's another - could this have been mounted in a similar way? (it does looks like concrete in front of the track at the bottom left, although it appears that it's not inclined in the same way as hudsonswhistle's example) - an inscription on the back reads "Cheshunt Park. August 15th 1921". Is this the front or rear of the tank? Hitchin & Cheshunt are not that far apart, was this type memorial peculiar to Hertfordshire, or were there others scattered around the country? (The old boy, incidentally, is my Great Grandfather who died in 1967 at the ripe old age of 101) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 This thread should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 This has also been covered in some detail in a much later thread than the one Clive has linked to (thanks though Clive - I hadn't seen the earlier one and one photo has solved a mystery for me). In fact many towns received presentation tanks (effectively every town that had had a tank week raising funds during the war). Most of the tanks presented were Mk IVs (there were some Mk IIIs) and a large number came straight from Bovingdon training establishments (but some came from France). most were female (but there were a few male and a couple of supply tanks).It has been said that male tanks went only to towns that had been involved in tank development/manufacture but again there is photographic evidence of at least one exception to this rule. There is a myth that they were all scrapped as part of the metal drive in 1940, in fact a significant number were scrapped well before WW2 often because the council were not prepared to provide the necessary maintenance funds (and they seem to have rusted very rapidly), sometimes because of 'health and safety' (small boys falling off them and councils being too mean to provide a fence) and there is some evidence that an element of 1930s pacifism was sometime involved. WW2 just finished them off. Paradoxically the Mk Vs that the Soviets ended up with fared better - Stalin had these presented to Soviet cities and a number have survived to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Thanks Clive & Centurion; it demonstrates, yet again, just how much information is available on here - the trouble is knowing where to look, or which search parameters to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hansen Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 "... Is this the front or rear of the tank?... Nigel, the area of the tank that your great-grandfather is standing in front of is the fuel tank at the rear of the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Is it possible to get a better scan of the rear? The WD number is visible but I can only make out the first two numbers (20??) Yes please Hudsonswhistle, if that's possible. It might then be possible to trace some of this tank's history, as my database presently includes 72 of the 100 tanks in the 20xx sequence. From the photo we can be pretty sure it served in France, as it has the unditching beam rails fitted. (These were fitted at Central Workshops at Erin and not by the manufacturers). If the number really is 20xx, we can also be sure that this tank started out as a Male, and has had Female sponsons replace the originals. This would be the third such "Female formerly Male" (no jokes please - I've done them all before!) to have been presented to towns that I'm aware of, although it is the first with the older pattern Mark IV Female sponsons. The plinth itself is astonishing; quite the most elaborate I've ever seen supporting both the rear tracks and the belly, and with an inscription too. I can only imagine that the tank had to be lifted into place. It surely couldn't have been driven onto such a thing. There must be surviving Council records and/or newspaper reports. Anyone reading this with access to Herts library service? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 From the photo we can be pretty sure it served in France, as it has the unditching beam rails fitted. (These were fitted at Central Workshops at Erin and not by the manufacturers). I'd agree that the unditching rails are a probable indication of French origin but I think this is not absolutely certain. The unditching rails were fitted in France but some (posibly all) traveled with the tank, unfitted, from the manufacturer (I believe with the stricter loading gauge on the British railway system this was necessary). In the same way tanks sent to Bovingdon could also have had unditching rails fitted on arrival. I'd need to check but I believe that unditching was part of the training at Wool and hence at least some tanks in the UK would have had unditching rails fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Clarity on this would be very helpful in photo interpretation, but the recognition stripes on the Hitchen tank also point to service in France. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 13 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2007 Hi Guys, it amazes me how quick people respond to a question on this forum,well done everyone, here is a close up of the rear of the tank as requested, it looks like 2088 to me,i look forward to the out come,tanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 13 December , 2007 Share Posted 13 December , 2007 I also read it as 2088. As chance would have it 2088 is one of the 28 20xx tanks I so far have no record of. What I can say is that 2089 was a Male that fought at Cambrai in November 1917 (as was 2085), so 2088 would have been built between March 1917 when production of the Mark IV began, and November 1917. I am still researching the question of which firms built which Mark IVs, but my research thus far suggests that the 20xx series was built by the Metropolitan Carriage Wagon & Finance Co. of Birmingham, though this is as yet unconfirmed. Thanks for sharing this photo. It has plugged another gap! Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjames Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 An interesting photo taken from "Cheltenham In Old Photographs". Regards Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Harris Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 From a Hertfordshire perspective there were a number of tanks on display as memorials that I am aware of, the most famous being in the entrance of Hatfield Park where they underwent some trials, as a child I recall it was covered in graffiti before being sent to Bovingdon where it is on display today. The Cheshunt tank was been covered earlier by Scotty and there was a further tank at Hemel Hempstead. This one was interesting as local legend suggests it was moved following an RTA/law suit with a similar unlit tank memorial in Leighton Buzzard. As it had been driven onto the concrete plank and disabled they decided to cut it up in situe, the arch welding gear struck a fule line and up caused a minor rexplosion injuring the workman. The memorial was replaced with a more typical cross and roll of honour and I visited the site in the early 90's with Henry Stubbington a 1/Hertfords veteren who accounted for his school chums listed among the names, an excellent day. Julian Whippy & I have our Battle Honours offices on the outskirts of Hitchin and have never heard of this memorial so we will dig a little locals to find out where it was. yours, aye' Clive www.battle-honours.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Thanks Jimmy for posting the Cheltenham picture. It's another new photo to me. Gloucestershire Archives Service has a "Scrapbook of First World War Events" (reference D4180/4), which apparently includes information on the presentation of the tank to Cheltenham. The number 285 reveals much less than the serial numbers do, only that it is a Mark IV Female, which we knew anyway. The tank doesn't seem to have left these shores judging by the lack of the unditching beam rails and the 285, as such numbers were only carried by tanks in Great Britain and Ireland. It was probably used for training. I am aware there was a tank at Hemel Hempstead but I didn't know of one at Leighton Buzzard. Petrol seems to have been routinely left in the presentation tanks (bet it wouldn't be today!) and accidents did happen during their disposal. I have a story that a man was killed when the petrol tank on the tank at Aylesbury (actually Market Sq., Kingsbury) exploded on application of a cutting torch. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Incidentally, why is there a plank of wood resting against one of the tracks in the Cheltenham picture? Is it holding it in place? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjames Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Gwyn Could it be that it is propping the tank up? It looks as if it is lodged under the port track. I guess Health and Safety was in its infancy then. I'll have a look in the various other books I have on "old" Cheltenham. Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalyback Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 "There is a myth that they were all scrapped as part of the metal drive in 1940, in fact a significant number were scrapped well before WW2 often because the council were not prepared to provide the necessary maintenance funds (and they seem to have rusted very rapidly), sometimes because of 'health and safety' (small boys falling off them and councils being too mean to provide a fence) and there is some evidence that an element of 1930s pacifism was sometime involved. WW2 just finished them off. Paradoxically the Mk Vs that the Soviets ended up with fared better - Stalin had these presented to Soviet cities and a number have survived to this day. " Sorry I stand corrected. I was one to belive all(most) WW1 tanks went for WW2 metal. Attached is a picture of the local WW1 tank. Caption with picture "WW1 between the world wars" so I guess this one went for WW2 scrap. The other picture I have includes a crowd with the caption "celebration of the return of John collins VC" To be flippent, he won the VC under heavy fire in Palestine. I think the tank would of been welcome at that point not coming home to one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Paradoxically the Mk Vs that the Soviets ended up with fared better - Stalin had these presented to Soviet cities and a number have survived to this day. Do you have some examples of where these survive, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 14 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Heres another one that sold on ebay lately has to be one of the nicest settings ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 Do you have some examples of where these survive, please? They are covered with photos in a number of old threads in the Landships forum - if and when I've got time I'll try and locate them and post the links but in the meantime if you use their serch facility you should pick them up. One is actually the subject of an extensive restoration project. In the meantime here is a photo of one that appears on a Russian web site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithmaps Posted 14 December , 2007 Share Posted 14 December , 2007 An interesting perspective, that when these tanks were scrapped, they were only 25 years old! That is the equivalent of 1982, or an old 'Y' reg car. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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