East Africa Campaign

[RodB]

I've been trying to get my head around the British ordnance used in the East Africa campaign. The problem I've run into is writers just referring to "naval 12 pounders" or "7 pounders". So can anybody help me with :-

7 pdr ML. Farndale indicates 6 "ML 7 pounders" were used by the Nyasaland-Rhodesian Field Force in 1916. Would these be the 1870s vintage 3 inch "Steel Gun" with a short howitzer-type barrel, predecessor to the 2.5 inch ML screw gun, range of 3000 yards ? Astonishing if so.

4 7 pounder MLs at Fort Johnston, manned by 1st KAR. Likewise - the 1870s 3 inch short gun ?

12 pounder 18 cwt naval guns. Farndale mentions 4 arriving on 10 Feb 1916 becoming the 9th Field Battery, manned by Royal Marines. Anybody know anything about such a gun, where from and how used ? Presumably off a warship ? Farndale complicates this by referring to 18 cwt (total weight). Normally such nomenclature explicitly referred to weight of gun and breech as a way of identifying the ordnance. "total weight" is vague.

12 pounder 8 cwt naval landing guns. Apparently 2 were used by 6th Field Battery "Logan's Battery". Anybody know where they came from ? HMS Pegasus ?

2 Naval 12 pounders lost in action at Ngominyi 31 October 1916. Were these the guns of Logan's Battery or the 9th Battery guns ?

cheers

Rod

[bushfighter]

RodB

Thanks for raising these questions – they need research. Doubtless Kondoa will be able to give some definitive answers.

The authority on British artillery in British East Africa in early 1916 appears to be “General Smuts’ Campaign in East Africa” (pages 40-43) by J.V.H. Crowe CB, who was GOC RA in theatre.

The Official History (pages 219-221) & “Britain’s Sea Soldiers” by General Sir H.E. Blumberg KCB (pages 389-390) both rely on Crowe whilst Farndale relies upon the Official History.

No 9 Field Battery – four 12-pounder 18 cwt guns

The guns were supplied by the Royal Navy and arrived on field mountings.

The gunners were Royal Marines with attached RFA officers.

At first drawn by oxen & later by Napier lorries.

No 6 Field Battery (Logan’s Battery) – two 12-pounder 8 cwt guns

(“Logan’s Battery” started with two naval 3-pounders & the Loyal North Lancashire soldiers learned their gun drills whilst on board HMS Goliath en route from Bombay to Tanga. In Nairobi proper limbers & carriages were obtained & oxen provided for transport. The unit was titled No 1 Light Battery. The Battery was then used from naval mountings on vessels both on Lake Victoria & off the East African coast.)

When two 12-pounder 8 cwt guns with pneumatic tyres were issued (from the Navy & probably from UK as this type of gun was displayed at & used in tournaments) the Battery was re-titled No 6 Field Battery.

The guns were at first drawn by Hupmobile cars & then by REO lorries.

No 10 Heavy Battery (previously titled No 3 Heavy Battery)

This battery initially used two naval 4-inch Mark III guns recovered from HMS Pegasus which was lying at the bottom of Zanzibar Harbour. A third gun was added in February 1916.

The gunners were seamen & Royal Marines.

The field carriages were improvised & the guns were drawn by Packard lorries with six REOs carrying ammunition.

No 8 (Calcutta Volunteer) Battery – six 12-pounder 6 cwt guns (the old horse-artillery gun)

The Calcutta Volunteer Battery was in fact, along with the two Mountain Batteries, a properly constituted battery before the war.

It was part of the Indian Volunteers military force & therefore its primary role was internal security which did not need a heavy punch.

Being drawn by oxen made the Battery very useful in East Africa but pioneers had to prepare the river & drift crossing points before the guns arrived at them.

The theatre was short of artillery, the Royal Artillery could not supply any & so until the South African Field Artillery units arrived obsolete guns were acquired, principally from the Royal Navy & India.

I’ll try & find answers to your other questions.

Harry

[KONDOA]

Unfortunately, I have little more detail than Harry has already provided. The main reference being the OH for Operations in East Africa.

134th Cornwall Battery was issued with 5.4" howitzers from India

12th Howitzer Battery (4th Cape Heavy Battery SAGA) armed with 5" BL howitzers

11th Hull Heavy Battery (11th & 13th Howitzer Batteries) armed with 5" BL Howitzers.

158th Heavy Battery also 5" BL Howitzers.

Roop

[bushfighter]

Rod

This link: http://samilitaryhistory.org/mjackson.html

probably provides the clues as to how the 7-pounder muzzle-loaders were introduced to Central Africa (with Indian gunners to suppress insurrections in Nyasaland & Northern Rhodesia).

This other link: http://www.nrzam.org.uk/Defence/Defence.html

tells more about May Jackson & the BSAP guns.

Harry

[RodB]

"It was not until 1903 that the 7 pdr RBL was replaced in the regular mountain batteries of the Royal Garrison Artillery and the Indian Mountain Artillery by a new 10 pounder breech loading gun". RBL ? 7 pounder ?

That illustrates my problem. "May Jackson" appears to have been a 2.5 inch RML, the "Screw Gun", not what was officially known as the 7 pounder. The RML 7 pounder had a short 3 inch howitzer barrel, the 2.5 inch was a gun, as was its successor the 10 pounder. The fact that the 2.5 inch fired shells of approximately 7 pounds has apparently led to it being referred to as 7 pounder, whereas officially it was known as 2.5 inch. Major Hall is at pains to point this out in his articles also on the SA Mil Hist site, presumably because he was aware that ammo balls-ups occurred if distinctions were not made. Farndale disappoints me as he does not seem to care about such distinctions, which are part of writing history.

So does this mean that what the various writers refer to as 7 pounders in the East Africa campaign were in fact 2.5 inch screw guns ? It would have made a difference to those in action as it carried far more wallop than the 7 pounder, especially as it could fire shrapnel at modern muzzle velocity : 1436 ft/sec vs 968 ft/sec.

"When General Sir Ian Hamilton, as Inspector-General of Overseas Forces, inspected the BSAP in 1912 he found 3x7pdr 3" RML (was this the pre-1880 short barreled gun?), 4x7pdr 2.5" RML...". Yes it was. BSA = Rhodesia. Would this indicate that the six "7 pounders" which campaigned with the Nyasaland-Rhodesian Field Force were these 4 2.5 inch plus 2 more from somewhere, with perhaps the 3 7 pounder 3 inch being those at Ft Johnston (South end of Lake Nyasa) mentioned by Farndale ? The 7 pounder's specs indicate it could not provide firepower in mobile warfare. But the "7 pounders" appear to have been spread out in sections : Hawthorn's Force 1 gun; Flindt's Force 2 guns; Rodger's Force 2 guns; Murray's Force 1 gun. So is it possible that 2 of these forces had single 3 inch 7 pounders ? Farndale seems a little vague on the numbers, on the same page describing Hawthorn advancing with 4 7 pounders manned by the 5th Sth African Mounted Rifles. Methinks these were the 4 2.5 inch guns that Hamilton found. It appears typical of the man to get details right. Further, if these were employed on field gun carriages for mobility as they apparently often had been in the Boer War, I think they could have been pretty useful in the hands of skilled gunners who were not now facing Boer marksmen. ?

Boers with captured RML 7 pounders

RML 2.5 inch in action during Siege of Kimberley

On field carriage, Boer War

Rod

[bushfighter]

2 Naval 12 pounders lost in action at Ngominyi 31 October 1916. Were these the guns of Logan's Battery or the 9th Battery guns ?

Rod

I believe that these two guns are the ones referred to on page 485 of the Official History as:

2 12-pdr. naval guns (salved from H.M.S. Pegasus) (therefore they were not Logan's Battery guns)

but would these be the same guns as the 4-inch Mark III guns of 10 Battery?

Incidentally the two officers killed at Ngominyi, Captain C.H.B. Clark & Lieutenant A.M. Bones were both from the South African Mounted Rifles & were attached to the KAR.

I cannot find trace of any other British troops killed at Ngominyi at the same time.

(The previous night Captain Clark had said that volunteers could exfiltrate the surrounded position, & half the defending force of 60 men did that.

The Germans captured the remainder after killing Clark & Bones.)

Harry

[bushfighter]

12-pounder 6 cwt guns

Rod

"Britain's Sea Soldiers" describes a Battery that I could not trace in Farndale.

No 16 Field Battery was formed in Dar Es Salaam in November 1916.

The personnel came from the RMA & had formed No 9 Battery until September 1916 when the 12-pounder 18-cwt guns were returned to store at Tanga.

No 16 Field Battery was issued with two 12-pounder 6-cwt guns formerly used by the Calcutta Volunteer Battery (No 8).

Mules were used for transport.

The Battery was in action several times on the advance to the Rufiji River.

When the Rains started the Battery returned to Dar Es Salaam on 1st March 1917 & returned the guns to store.

The November & December 1916 War Diary (two pages only) is in the PRO at: WO 95 5333.

Harry

[bushfighter]

Guns on the Lake Victoria Naval Flotilla

Rod
You may be interested in the array of guns used on British vessels on Lake Victoria:
(The Flotilla had started the war armed with one 6-pounder Muzzle Loader & two “old 2.5-pounder French guns”, but these were soon discarded.)

4” QF guns x 2 (recovered from HMS Pegasus)
12-pounder 12-cwt gun x 1 (an armoured-train gun brought from India & manned by the North West Railway Volunteers)
6-pounder guns x 2 (supplied by HMS Fox & HMS Goliath)
3-pounder guns x 4 (two recovered from HMS Pegasus & two issued to Logan’s Battery in India by the Royal Navy. These latter two fired off the deck of the “Usoga” from their field carriages)
15-pounder x 1 (this was sent up the railway line to Kisumu on a field carriage but could never be satisfactorily mounted on a ship’s mounting)
12-pounder 8-cwt x 1

When hostilities ceased on Lake Victoria in 1916 the Flotilla was disbanded & a Naval Battery of two 6-pounder,two 3-pounder guns plus the 15-pounder gun was formed with field carriages. (See OH page 436.)
This battery supported the advance south from Mwanza.

Another 15-pounder plus three “small Hotchkiss guns” had also been in action on the Kagera Front. (See OH page 403.)
Kagera Front War Diaries also mention the use of three Trench Mortars.

A naval article that I extracted these details from states that the 12-pounder 8-cwt went to be part of Logan's (No 6 Field) Battery.

I wonder if the two 4" QF guns (ex-HMS Pegasus) were railed to Mombasa, shipped down the coast and moved to Nyasaland to eventually be captured at Ngominyi?

Harry

[Helen Bachaus]

Hi Guys, The "Konigsberg" by Kevin Patience on Page 73 indicates that four guns were shipped to Mombasa of which one of these was mounted in a gun emplacement near the entrance to Kilindini harbour. So that leaves three guns of which the unmounted gun was fitted to the fordeck of the Winifred which now leaves two unaccounted for and the author has not expanded on this point about these two guns.

So at this stage I cannot say otherwisw if the two guns captured were these guns from the Pegasus.

Best Wishes

Helen

[RodB]

At the risk of bring everybody to tears, I'm reopening this thread, still trying to trace the "12 pounder 18 cwt" guns of 9th Battery.

I don't see how they could have come from Pegasus, as it is not reported as being part of its armament. The 12 pdr 18 cwt was a peculiar class, as a high-velocity gun firing light shells intended for fast-moving small targets like torpedo boats - the Phalanx of its day. I can't see it being any use in the African bush - which could explain them being "shipped back to depot" in September. Apparently it was used on large ships, which Pegasus wasn't. Pegasus's secondary armament was smaller 3 pounders.

I'm wondering if an error in the Official History has been recycled here i.e. if they were not in fact 12 pdr 18 cwt, or they did not come from HMS Pegasus. Farndale states that 9th Battery had 4 12 pounder 18 cwt from HMS Pegasus, and he used the Official History. Then - if the guns were in fact 12 pounder 8 cwt landing guns they could have come from Pegasus. Anybody know how many a light cruiser would have carried ?

If they were in fact 12 pdr 18 cwt, where did they come from ? Unloaded from a large ship, which ? Farndale describes them as initially being hauled by oxen and later by Napier lorries, which does indeed seem to fit the needs of the relatively heavy 12 pdr 18 cwt, but would not have been necessary for the light 12 pdr 8 cwt.

cheers

Rod

[bushfighter]

Rod

"Britain's Sea Soldiers" by General Sir H.E. Blumberg KCB has a very useful chapter No 27 titled: "Royal Marine Batteries in East Africa".

There he states:

"Early in 1916 as there was a shortage of heavy artillery, the Admiralty agreed to send out four 4-inch Mark VII. B.L. and four 12-pounder 18 cwt guns on field mountings."

"The 12-pounders were formed into No. 9 Battery . . . ."

"When the column advanced down the Pangani River, as all the oxen were required for supply duties, No. 9 Battery was left behind at Himo at the foot of Kilimanjaro, and later moved to Mbuyuni near Taveta."

"In September 1916 No. 9 Battery had been sent by rail to Tanga where the 12-pounder 18-cwt. guns were returned to store; . . . the personnel proceeded by sea to Dar-es-Salaam, and the Battery was re-armed with the 12-pounder Horse Artillery guns, formerly belonging to the Calcutta Battery and was renumbered No. 16 Battery." (See Post No #7 above.)

Harry

[SteveE]

Doesn't really help but, just out of interest, I came across an entry today in the War Diary of Maktau Base Depot Commandant (WO95/5379)....

6/3/1916 Departures.

(a) R.M.A. Bde. Headquarters (3 British officers, 14 R&F & 1 Follower)

(b.) R.M.A. - 9th Field Battery (4 B.O.s, 106 R& F, 8 lorries & 4 12-Pounders)

Steve

[cahoehler]

. . . chapter No 27 titled: "Royal Marine Batteries in East Africa".

There he states:

"Early in 1916 as there was a shortage of heavy artillery, the Admiralty agreed to send out four 4-inch Mark VII. B.L. and four 12-pounder 18 cwt guns on field mountings.". . .

Harry

Harry

Could these have originally been the dismounted guns from Malta mentioned in Chapter 32?

The four 4-inch BL guns were in GSWA and were returned to England with the South African Heavy Artillery in Aug/Sep 1915.

The four 12-pdr 18-cwt QF guns had seemingly remained in SA after the GSWA campaign. Two of these (?) guns had followed in the wake of Berrange's Eastern Force at the beginning of 1915 but they had received the wide 'Salt River' pattern steel disc wheels.

Carl

[bushfighter]

Carl

I've been looking through:

"South Africa and The Great War 1914-1918 - Official History of the War" (Battery Press)

and

"Urgent Imperial Service - South African Forces in German South West Africa 1914 - 1915" by Gerald L'Ange (Ashanti)

but neither book is very forthcoming about artillery units. Blumberg's "Britain's Sea Soldiers" remains the best source.

Farndale's "The Forgotten Fronts" doesn't comment on the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy guns.

On arrival in UK the South African Heavy Brigade was re-armed with 6-inch 26-cwt howitzers, so the 4-inch guns were available - perhaps along with the 12-pounder 18-cwt guns - for East Africa.

In East Africa both the Uganda Railway workshops at Nairobi and the Central Railway workshops in Dar Es Salaam were used to modify British and German gun carriages and equipment.

Harry

[cahoehler]

. . . neither book is very forthcoming about artillery units. Blumberg's "Britain's Sea Soldiers" remains the best source.

Harry

Sadly the history of the Heavy Artillery in GSWA and the South African Heavy Artillery in France & Belgium has been totally neglected except for Stemmet but this is a doctoral thesis in Afrikaans and Stemmet lacks an in depth knowledge of artillery (eg he uses gun and howitzer interchangeably) and makes incorrect assumptions based on a limited knowledge of WW1 BUT he does give a list (although not complete) of the references at the SANDF Documentation Centre BUT these records are very poorly arranged and are incomplete.

Fraser & Carr-Laughton's The Royal Marine Artillery looks promising but is very scarce and very expensive.

The SA Field Artillery (GEA, Egypt & Palestine) has a number of histories but I am not familiar. There is also Brown's For King and Kaiser about GEA.

I have a complete set of the KNOWN primary and secondary records. The GSWA campaign was not well documented, there were, as is usual in SA, issues about writing the Official History of the GSWA campaign, access to the captured German Archives and regimental records. Leipoldt (Official History 1924) replaced Wingham as Official Historian but Collyer (Campaign and German East Africa) had wanted to write the history and witheld the General Staff records from Leipoldt and then wrote his books after retiring. This is in Contested Histories (available as a Google e-Book).

.

1. Boonzaier, C, German South West Africa OOB, http://www.imperial-research.net/gswa_oob.htm

2. Boonzaier, C, "World War One in Africa", http://www.trenchfighter.com/40117/home.html

3. Buchan, J , The History of the South African Forces in France, (London no date [1920])

4. Collyer, Brig-Gen J J , Campaign in German South West Africa 1914-1915, (Pretoria 1937)

5. Defence Headquarters, The Union of South Africa and the Great War, 1914-1918 (Pretoria 1924).

6. Fraser, E & Carr-Laughton, L G, The Royal Marine Artillery 1804-1923. (London 1930)

7. Paterson, H , FIRST ALLIED VICTORY - The South African campaign in German South West Africa, 1914-1915 (Military History Journal - Vol 13 No 2) http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol132hp.html

8. Stemmet, F J , Die Geskiedenis van die Suid-Afrikaanse Artillerie 1912 – 1918, (Johannesburg 1985)

9. Tylden, Major G , The Armed Forces of South Africa (Johannesburg 1954)

10. van der Waag, Lt Col I J W, Contested Histories: Official History and the South African Military in the Twentieth Century in Jeffrey Grey, J (ed) Last Word? Essays on Official History in the United States and British Commonwealth (Westport 1999)

Carl

[bushfighter]

Carl

Thanks for the list.

I think that the GSWA Campaign deserves more study because of the effect it had on South African military policy in East Africa.

Many of General Smuts' decisions in 1916 can be understood better by relating to the South African experience in GSWA - few casualties, acceptable conditions (compared to EA) for horses, a reasonably healthy climate for white men, terrain that could be traversed quickly, few logistical dramas, an enemy prepared to surrender rather than manoeuvre himself into adjacent Portuguese territory and continue fighting, and a short campaign.

In 1916 in GEA General Smuts' attempts to manouevre quickly without adequate logistical support, through malarial and tsetse-infested bush & swamp against a determined enemy, finally led to mass exhaustion and disease amongst his white and Indian troops.

GEA certainly wasn't like GSWA.

Harry

[Muerrisch]

Just stumbled on this thread: to master such an esoteric subject is a subject of wonder .

Yet this forum resounds with threads of similar profundity.

How did I manage without it?

[cahoehler]

Grumpy

Being profound is slow and difficult work (and I am not really good at it) but here are some more snippets of esoterica and once again more questions than answers.

In the library of the South African National Museum of Military History there is an unpublished manuscript (dated 1952) by Dr H H Curson dealing with the Units of the Great War. Dr H H Curson wrote Colours and Honours in South Africa 1783-1948, The History of the Kimberley Regiment 1876-1962, Regimental Devices in South Africa 1783-1954, More Military and Police Devices from South Africa 1790-1962 and was co-author with Adler & Lorch of The South African Field Artillery in German East Africa and Palestine 1915-1919.

During March 1915 the three Brigades of the [old South African] Heavy Artillery [Corps] were deployed as follows

- 1^st Brigade was attached to Northern Force [scattered between Walvis Bay and Ebony in northern GSWA]

- 2^nd Brigade was attached to Central Force [scattered between Lüderitzbucht and Tchaukaib in southern GSWA]

- The Depot Brigade was at Mowbray in Cape Town [the location is variously given by others as Groote Schuur or Rondebosch – all being 2 or 3 kilometres east of Table Mountain.] and "K" Battery (two 12-pdr 12-cwt) is shown 'for East Africa' under the command of Captain R Lucien 'assisted' by Lieutenant L E Vowles

From Hurst in a Short History of the Volunteer Regiments of Natal and East Griqualand

Another artillery unit from the Durban Garrison Artillery personnel was formed under Lieutenant L E Vowles and known as "K" Battery. This unit consisted of two 12-pounder naval guns mounted on field carriages – made in the South African Railway shops at Salt River, Cape Town [about 4 kilometres north of the Heavy Artillery Depot] and drawn by 22 oxen.

This is the Battery that followed in the wake of Berrangé's Eastern Force across the Kalahari Desert from Kimberley to Keetmanshoop in March and April 1915 before returning to Cape Town via Lüderitzbucht and being disbanded in June/July 1915. A large proportion of the members would then volunteer again for service in Europe (The new South African Heavy Artillery) and German East Africa and Palestine (South African Field Artillery).

Carl

[RodB]

Carl Hoehler said:

Grumpy

Being profound is slow and difficult work (and I am not really good at it) but here are some more snippets of esoterica and once again more questions than answers.

In the library of the South African National Museum of Military History there is an unpublished manuscript (dated 1952) by Dr H H Curson dealing with the Units of the Great War. Dr H H Curson wrote Colours and Honours in South Africa 1783-1948, The History of the Kimberley Regiment 1876-1962, Regimental Devices in South Africa 1783-1954, More Military and Police Devices from South Africa 1790-1962 and was co-author with Adler & Lorch of The South African Field Artillery in German East Africa and Palestine 1915-1919.

During March 1915 the three Brigades of the [old South African] Heavy Artillery [Corps] were deployed as follows

- 1^st Brigade was attached to Northern Force [scattered between Walvis Bay and Ebony in northern GSWA]

- 2^nd Brigade was attached to Central Force [scattered between Lüderitzbucht and Tchaukaib in southern GSWA]

- The Depot Brigade was at Mowbray in Cape Town [the location is variously given by others as Groote Schuur or Rondebosch – all being 2 or 3 kilometres east of Table Mountain.] and "K" Battery (two 12-pdr 12-cwt) is shown 'for East Africa' under the command of Captain R Lucien 'assisted' by Lieutenant L E Vowles

From Hurst in a Short History of the Volunteer Regiments of Natal and East Griqualand

Another artillery unit from the Durban Garrison Artillery personnel was formed under Lieutenant L E Vowles and known as "K" Battery. This unit consisted of two 12-pounder naval guns mounted on field carriages – made in the South African Railway shops at Salt River, Cape Town [about 4 kilometres north of the Heavy Artillery Depot] and drawn by 22 oxen.

This is the Battery that followed in the wake of Berrangé's Eastern Force across the Kalahari Desert from Kimberley to Keetmanshoop in March and April 1915 before returning to Cape Town via Lüderitzbucht and being disbanded in June/July 1915. A large proportion of the members would then volunteer again for service in Europe (The new South African Heavy Artillery) and German East Africa and Palestine (South African Field Artillery).

Carl

Carl, drawn by 22 oxen to me indicates a fairly heavy gun.. like 18cwt.. Salt River ... wheels.. are these the 12 pounder 18cwt guns that appear to have popped up in East Africa here : https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/95359-artillery-east-africa/

Rod

[cahoehler]

RodB said:

. . . indicates a fairly heavy gun . . .

 

 

Rod

The (two only?) guns from "K" Battery were reported as 12-pdr 12-cwt and could have been originally from the Durban defences (and staffed by Durban Garrison Artillery) but placed on a (standard Woolwich?) field carriage and then given those wide Salt River pattern wheels but sadly no images have surfaced.

The four guns that accompananied the Royal Marine Artillery contingent to SA in late 1914 were definitely dismounted (on standard Woolwich field carriages?) 12-pdr 18-cwt guns from Malta and also received those wide Salt River pattern wheels. I have only seen this image. These became "D" Battery and were staffed by the Cape Garrison Artillery. I am sure these are the guns in this post.

During the ABW a 4.7 would require as many as 36 oxen if the going was bad - I will look up Burnes and Jeans to check as there only 12-pdr 12-cwt guns used in SA during the ABW.

Carl

[RodB]

Carl Hoehler said:

Rod

The (two only?) guns from "K" Battery were reported as 12-pdr 12-cwt and could have been originally from the Durban defences (and staffed by Durban Garrison Artillery) but placed on a (standard Woolwich?) field carriage and then given those wide Salt River pattern wheels but sadly no images have surfaced.

The four guns that accompananied the Royal Marine Artillery contingent to SA in late 1914 were definitely dismounted (on standard Woolwich field carriages?) 12-pdr 18-cwt guns from Malta and also received those wide Salt River pattern wheels. I have only seen this image. These became "D" Battery and were staffed by the Cape Garrison Artillery. I am sure these are the guns in this post.

During the ABW a 4.7 would require as many as 36 oxen if the going was bad - I will look up Burnes and Jeans to check as there only 12-pdr 12-cwt guns used in SA during the ABW.

Carl

Do you think this is one of those 12 pounder 12 cwt guns :

This was posted by SteveE at

The difference in barrel length is 30 inches and on second looks this gun looks closer to 120 inches bore than 150 inches ..

[cahoehler]

Do you think this is one of those 12 pounder 12 cwt guns . . . .

Rod

In an image scale and perspective can be nasty old things.

SteveE and Bob H had another go at identifying this equipment and the conclusion was definitely a 12-pdr 18-cwt and I agree.

BUT

I really would like to see the Handbook for the 12-Pr. Quick-Firing Guns 1913 at TNA / PRO (Kew) under ADM 186/189 and (hint, hint, wish, wish) these as well

ADM 186 / 877 Handbook for the 4-inch Mark VII and VIII breech loading (BL) guns 1908

ADM 186 / 874 Handbook for the 4.7-inch quick firing gun 1903

ADM 186 / 180 Handbook for 6-inch Breech loading Mark VII and Mark VIII guns 1904

There are also Handbooks for the QF 4-inch Land Service and for the 6-inch Q.F. Land Service (1901) but these are not apparent at Kew . . .

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . I will look up Burnes and Jeans . . .

Rod

BURNE, C.R.N. With the Naval brigade in Natal 1899-1900. London: Edward Arnold, 1902

Captain Jones ordered me to go on up the hill during the night, leaving the 4.7 guns at the bottom; so we commenced a weary climb up Van Wyk (6,000 feet) on a pitch-dark night lighted only by the lurid gleams of grass fires which the enemy had set going on the slopes of the mountain. With thirty-two oxen on each gun it was only just possible to ascend the lower slopes, and thus we made very slow progress. But as Colonel Sim R.E. kindly showed me a sort of track up, on we toiled for six hours, my men not having had a scrap of food or a rest since starting while the night was deadly cold and dark. In the gray dawn, just as we were attempting the last slope which was almost precipitous, the wheels of one of the guns gave out and there we had to leave it till daylight, pressing on with the sound one and getting it up to the top exactly at daylight (7th June) in accordance with our orders, taking the gun and limber up separately, with all my oxen and 100 men pulling.

Also from Burne but with no date / location but this image is after the above quote

Carl

[RodB]

Rod

In an image scale and perspective can be nasty old things.

SteveE and Bob H had another go at identifying this equipment and the conclusion was definitely a 12-pdr 18-cwt and I agree.

BUT

I really would like to see the Handbook for the 12-Pr. Quick-Firing Guns 1913 at TNA / PRO (Kew) under ADM 186/189 and (hint, hint, wish, wish) these as well

ADM 186 / 877 Handbook for the 4-inch Mark VII and VIII breech loading (BL) guns 1908

ADM 186 / 874 Handbook for the 4.7-inch quick firing gun 1903

ADM 186 / 180 Handbook for 6-inch Breech loading Mark VII and Mark VIII guns 1904

There are also Handbooks for the QF 4-inch Land Service and for the 6-inch Q.F. Land Service (1901) but these are not apparent at Kew . . .

Carl

A good part of the 4-inch MkVII & VIII manual is online at at http://www.gwpda.org/naval/hb4_inch.htm

[cahoehler]

. . . . look up Burnes and Jeans . . . .

Rod

Jeans, Surgeon T T (ed), Naval Brigades in the South African War 1899-1900 (London 1901) (N & M Press reprint) (Uckfield 2007)

Another description by Captain E P Jones of hauling the 4.7s to the top of Van Wyk

An image showing half the team which could then mean 16 pairs . . . .

Carl