stevenbecker Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Mates, I was rereading the Offical history and now what to know more about the raid carried out by the Duke of Westminster around the 17th March 1916. On the 17th March the Duke of Westminster with 45 Armour cars and amblances left Sollum to free the british Sailors from the "Tara" and "Moorina" who where being held prisioner by the Senussi at El Hakkim. The raid was a succses and the 91 prisoners were freed. There was a lot of media attention about this raid but there little details about it? Can you tell me what was the name of the Duke of Westminster's Armoured Car unit? I am aware that the British had the Cavalry Corps Motor MG Bty in the desert as well as the 17th Motor MG Bty was one of these the Duke's unit? Also I was trying to ID the Armoured car Bty's and Light Cars Patrols in the Western desert between 1916 and 1917. the Offical history mentions that the Western Frontier Force had five Armoured Motor Bty's and six Light Car Patrol's (Ford's) and one Motor MG Bty. The Motor MG Bty is the 17th MMGB while the others could be the 11th and 12th Armoured Motor Bty's and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Light Armoured Motor Bty's ( these are shown in the offical History). While I know the 1st Australian Light Car Patrol (Bty), was there at the time. Can anyone help ID these units? Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barkalotloudly Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 i have a book called "Steel Chariots in the desert" printed during the 1930`s there is also another book, Prisioners of the red desert?? i think, that deals with this incident regards john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gothic69 Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Hi Steve, The Duke of Westminister was commissioned in the R.N.A.S in 1914 and privately finanaced and personaly commanded a Rolls Royce armoured Car squadron in the RNAS Armoured Car Division(RNACD). This unit was the No2 Squadron who first went to France in March 1915 then returned in July 1915 when the armoured car division was disbanded. They were given an option to transfer to the army which they all did and formed three 4 car batteries 1,2,3 AMB (Armoured Motor Battery) of the Machine Gun Corps(Motors) from the original 12 car No2 Squadron. They first went to France in Oct 1915 then on to Egypt in Dec 1915 where they joined the Western Frontier Force replacing the Naval Emergency Squadron (made up of the remains of Nos 3 & 4 Squadrons RNACD which had been sent to Gallipolithen onto Egypt in June 1915). They went into action against the Senussi in March 1916 then moved to Palestine in Nov 1917, then back to Egypt in May 1918, then disbanded in 1919. The other units were the 11 & 12 Light Armoured Car Batteries (LACB), when the Naval Emergency Squadron was disbanded in Jan 1916 the cars were given to No 11 & 12 LACB whoose crews where sent from the UK and the Light Car Patrols (LCP) these were developed from the unarmoured Model T Ford cars armed with lewis guns because the Rolls Royce armoured car was to heavy for the Sahara sand. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 Sources: "The sea and the sand: the story of HMS Tara and the western desert force" by William Davies (Gwynedd Archives and Museums Service, 1988). ISBN 0901337748X. "Steel chariots in the desert: the story of an armoured car driver with the Duke of Westminster in Libya and in Arabia with T. E. Lawrence", by S.C. Rolls (London: Jonathan Cape, 1937) and reprinted by the Rolls-Royce Enthusiasts Club, 1988. "Sanussi's little war: the amazing story of a forgotten conflict in the western desert, 1915-17", published on 1 March 2007 by Arabian Publishing Limited of 3 Devonshire Street, London W1W 5BA and written by Russell McGuirk. ISBN 0954479270. Anglesey Record Office holds the personal papers of Alfred Dutton, the paymaster on board HMS Tara. I recently research a chap by the name of Percy Frederick Teychenné, a driver who was one of the Duke's team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 1st Australian Light Car Section 1 Mercedes & 1 Daimler armoured cars plus a Minerva tender plus motor cycle combination Egypt: April 1916 to April 1917. From David Fletcher's War Cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 The DoW's armoured cars were involved in the final attacks on the Sennusi Oases. They were accompanied by a number of lorries mounting artillery (mounted not towed). I have been trying to find out more about these but to no avail other than to discover that one had a Krupp breachloader of somewhat ancient design. I have an interest in this phase of the campaign as a great uncle was a cavalry officer in it and I have a photo of him at a captured Sennusi oasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 9 December , 2007 Share Posted 9 December , 2007 This is a picture of a silver model of the Duke's armoured car, presented to him by the survivors of the TARA and MOORINA. It was shown as part of The Grosvenor Treasures exhibition in aid of the NSPCC in 1984, and illustrated in the catalogue. The Duke was awarded the DSO for this exploit. His medals and decorations were also in the 1984 exhibition. LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 11 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2007 Mates, Many thanks for your replys, I seems I have a few books to find. The Duke of Westminster being in command the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Armoured Motor Batteries, was there a group name for these three bty's? As you maybe aware my area is the Camel Corps and I need details on their actions in the Western Frontier Force to flesh out my chapter. The action with the Duke of Westminster involved a Camel Cormpany thats why I needed details on them, but I am also after details on another action using Armoured cars. Between the 17th and 22nd Oct 1916 a small force of one Camel Company and a mixed force of Cars took part in an operation to capture the Dakha Osais. The Armoured cars are mentioned in the history page 139 of one R/R armoured car and one tender, six ford cars and 12 motor bikes of two officers and 58 men. There is no mention of what Light Patrol or Bty this unit was. Can anyone help in find what British Light Patrol this was that operated with the Southern Frontier Forces during 1916? Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domsim Posted 11 December , 2007 Share Posted 11 December , 2007 hi Steve Not Egypt but I have copies of war diaries of Hejaz Armoured car section and 10th motor section Royal Field Artillery, some of the actions involve 2nd Battalion ICC (7th and 10th companies) in the Jordan area 1918. Cheers Dominic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 11 December , 2007 Share Posted 11 December , 2007 Steve The Duke of Westminster's command was known as the Light Armoured Car Brigade. The Light Car Patrols were formed in April 1916 and operated with the Western Frontier Force. No 1 Light Car Patrol was based at Kharga, which is approx 100 miles east of Dakla, at the time and, indeed ,throughout most of 1916. I therefore presume that it was this unit which was involved in the capture of the oasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 12 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Mates, Thanks again for the details. Charles thankyou for the name it adds to the story I am writting on the actions at that time. The commander of the 1st Camel Company was Lt Ernest Henry Whitford MILLS and he recieved a MC for this operation, do you know the commander of the No 1 Light Car Patrol on this operation and did he recieve any awards? By the way yes both the armoured cars and the Camel Company were based and started the operation from Kharga. Dom Mate I have a number of accounts from my camel Corps side for this operation in the Hejaz but none from the side of the Armoured car section. Yes any account would be of interest to add another side to the story. Thanks again to all S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Steve Alas, I don't have the name of the OC 1 LCP. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwwjournal Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 The picture below was taken by my grandfather while serving with the Cheshire Yeomanry. It was taken about September 1916 and possibly at camp near Minia. I hope it is of some interest. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwwjournal Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 and another one.... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 12 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 12 December , 2007 David, Thank you for the photo's there great. I like the Rolls Royce armoured car without a turret, I've not seen that before. Could it be a Tender refered to in the offical history? either way mate thank you S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 12 December , 2007 Share Posted 12 December , 2007 Yes thanks David Stevebecker Yes it appears to be a Rolls Royce tender. Some were built as such and other converted from RR armoured cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fwwjournal Posted 13 December , 2007 Share Posted 13 December , 2007 Although having had these pictures for many years, I had never really invesitgated anything of the cars or their history. Now I have more to learn! Can anyone explain what the purpose of the Tender was please? Thanks, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 13 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 December , 2007 Mate, I am unsure but I am thinking it could be like a REME or ASC attachment to the Armoured unit? I would surpose it carried spares and other equiptment and possibly supplies and stores? But I am open here as that just a stab in the dark. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 13 December , 2007 Share Posted 13 December , 2007 [quote name='ResearchPress' date='Dec 13 2007, 06:58 AM' post='818985' Can anyone explain what the purpose of the Tender was please? Almost anything in the way of light transport in support of the unit from collecting spares, picking up rations, delivering unit returns/other documentation, taking mechanics to a broken down car, to ferrying officers off for a binge in Cairo (or which ever city was handy)! RFC/RAF tenders performed similar functions in many places Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algernon3 Posted 14 August , 2015 Share Posted 14 August , 2015 Today’s armored vehicles have come a long way in terms of technology. Our armored cars and armored trucks are reinforced with various composite materials and metal plating systems so as to make them especially resistant to attacks of various types. Whether it is a simple bat-wielding assailant or a coordinated attack with explosives and/or firearms, these vehicles have been designed with all types of defensive scenarios in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifanlloyd Posted 21 August , 2015 Share Posted 21 August , 2015 Any idea of what colour the Rolls were painted for desert war fare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts Gunner Posted 23 August , 2015 Share Posted 23 August , 2015 Gents As this thread is running I will post a couple of photos for identification and comment. Both images formed part of a group of 60 rescued from a house clearance over 50 years ago. They are not mine but I have the holder's permission to circulate. The house was the home of a former Sergeant in 1/1 Nottinghamshire RHA (TF). I am researching that battery and can confirm that it was engaged in the Senussi Campaign and at least two of the officers were seconded to the Duke of Westminster's Armoured Car Squadron. The attached image shows what I assume to be the squadron at an unknown location - Mersa Matruh perhaps. Comments gratefully received. I will post the second image in a subsequent reply KRs Malc Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts Gunner Posted 23 August , 2015 Share Posted 23 August , 2015 Gents Here is the second image that appears to show Italian troops with lorry mounted artillery or Heavy MGs. Any thoughts or comments gratefully received KRs Malc Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heliographen-Abteilung Posted 12 December , 2015 Share Posted 12 December , 2015 ResearchPress = the image shown is an armoured car that has it's turret removed because of the problems with the oppressive heat. It is not a "tender" or "battery car." This is a tender.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 9 April , 2017 Share Posted 9 April , 2017 I have a diary with a first hand account at the time of the incident on 17th March if this would be of any interest. The soldier who wrote it was my husband's great uncle who wrote an account of his whole experiences of WW1 - very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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