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Remembered Today:

Baptism of Fire: The Second Battle of Ypres


Al Parsons

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Arm:

First, before I forget, was General Thomas D'Oyly Snow any relation to the D'Oyly of the D'Oyly-Cart Opera Company, which produced almost all of Gilbert and Sullivan's works?

Snow told Edmonds, the British Official Historian, that had Currie been a British officer he would have had him shot. I am not aware that Alderson ever spoke of Snow's obtuseness or Currie's decision to look for troops.

Currie's decision was done to try to damage his reputation. It stemmed, if memory serves, from comments made by Sir Sam Hughes, who was dead by the time the trial took place. The trial, however, pivoted on the question of Currie's actions at Mons on the last day of the war.

Both Snow and Alderson could very well have gotten the sack for their actions at 2nd Ypres. I have some sympathy for Alderson because his command and control systems were frayed almost to the breaking point. Still, he could have -- and should have -- taken a stronger hand with B-General Richard Turner. The only Canadian to get the sack, by the way was Colonel John Currie (no relation), who commanded the 15th Battalion and almost certainly was suffering from PTSD.

Cheers,

Nathan

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Nathan,

As far as the opera thingy, its something I have never been able to confirm, though I suspect it may be somewhere along the line.

Does Snow's telling Edmonds date from after the war, during research for the OH or more or less at the time?

Can you in a nutshell tell me what Snow did wrong at 2nd ypres that 'could very well have gotten the sack for their actions at 2nd Ypres'

regards

Arm

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Arm:

Snow's conversation with Edmonds was after the war. It took place while Edmonds was writing the Official History. There could, however, have been some sort of conversation during the war for Edmonds was, if memory serves, on Snow's staff.

I'm probably going far out on a limb here, but Snow could (and I emphasize could) have been sacked for not making it clear to Generals Alderson and Currie that he had been put in charge of the reserves. I also think that Snow's decision to send the Irish to Fortuin was something less than an inspired bit of generalling. Finally, his refusal to aid Currie's Brigade surely rates at least a few raised eye brows.

Nathan

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Nathan,

Apologises for the delay in replying. With the new posts thingy playing up I have missed this addition!

Snow may well have had a 'war' conversation about the incident, however by the end of 1914 both Snow and Edmonds had ceased to be part of 4th division and Edmonds ended up at GHQ. But it is highly possible that they 'met up' during the war.

In regard to Snow's lack of help to Currie. I was always under the impression (here I show my lack of detailed knowledge) that a couple of battalions had already been sent to the area. I must get my OH out and check this. I had taken this as accurate when I read it somewhere and did not, I confess, double check the fact.

regards

Arm

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More than a couple of battalions has been sent. Unfortunately, from the 22nd thru mid-day on the 24th, most of the British battalions that Plumer gave to Alderson and Alderson gave to Turner were sent (by Turner) to the GHQ line. The GQH line ran north/south, which means it could be enfiladed by the Germans and did not protect Ypres. When Snow began sending men forward, he sent them to the equally useless position of Fortuin, well back of Currie's men on Gravenstafel Ridge. Not until the Canadians were relieved on the 25th were there substantial British units brought forward; I'm not counting, of course, the Buffs and Middlesex units that were brought forward on the 22nd or the other units that were part of Geddes's Detachment, which fought valiantly on Mauser Ridge and at the Apex. [Nor, of course, am I referring to the British on the Canadian right.]

Turner's decision to send, literally, thousands, of men to the GHQ line was THE blunder of 2nd Ypres.

Cheers,

Nathan

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Cheers for that Nathan,

I have got the OH out to have a look at this section.

regards

Arm

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  • 9 months later...
  • 12 years later...
On 05/12/2007 at 12:48, Al Parsons said:

Arm, rolling up my sleeves to type. There is more to it than what follows but this should give you a good flavour.

Is it possible to determine what happened in that dugout ? Fortunately, there was a witness, Lieutenant Edison F. Lynn of the 2nd Field Company Canadian Engineers, and he supports Currie's version of events. Just before Currie arrived at the dugout, Lynn saw an example of Snow's famous temper. Snow sent for Lynn after learning that he and several hundred Canadian stragglers he had collected ...were extending a nearly trench. As...(Lynn).... arrived near the dugout he saw Captain Paul Villiers...enter it. Lynn followed a moment later, and he heard Snow pepper Villiers with a series of disjointed questions concerning 'the location of each Battalion; the condition of the line; the strength of the forces against them; gas discharges.' Because of the way Snow put the questions, Villier's 'replies were at times vague and unsatisfactory.' He lacked the information, for example, to be able to trace the 3rd Brigade's line on Snow's map, which caused the brigadier to shout, 'Are your men a hundred yards away or are they a mile or miles away?' When Villiers was unable to clarify the situaiton, Snow began cursing him for his stupidity, and then went on to curse 'the Canadians and all connected with them'. The tirade concluded with Snow shouting, 'Get out of here. Get back to your brigade and, when you have some definite information to pass on, send someone with intelligence, if you have such a one, capable of expaining the situation'.

 

Al

Thought you might like to see this........

Mike

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