Casemant & Irish PoWs

[PhilB]

I read that Casement attempted to recruit Irish PoWs of the Germans to fight against the British. Those who refused to volunteer were subjected to "brutal treatment" by their German guards. How successful were Casement`s attempts and were the claims of brutality subsequently confirmed?

[Doug Johnson]

Hi,

There are a few detailed threads on the subject on this part of the forum which should be easy to find using the search engine. In summary, Irish were generally transferred to Limburg at the end of 1914 beginning of 1915. Limburg then became a "propaganda" camp. Some refused to be transferred and received some rough treatment including beatings but in the end were not transferred. There are various reports of the numbers recruited of which the highest I have is 50 initially transferred to Zossen followed by a further five later on. The failure of the recruitment turned Limburg into a "punishment" camp and the inmates were on the wrong end of some harsh treatment though brutal is perhaps a bit strong though, with a few exceptions. During this period there were some deaths by shooting (two I think). The biggest problem with Limburg appears to have been the failure to respond to the prevalence of TB in the camp. The deliberately overcrowded conditions and failure of the authorities to respond by isolating the cases in the early stages resulted in many more contracting the disease than there should have been. The American Embassy tried to assist in the matter and offered the services of some independent experts but this was not taken up. (under the agreement between Britain and Germany, TB cases in the early stages should have been transferred to a neutral country though this did not apply to those in the later stages. The Limburg early stage cases were however, unrecognised as such and were not isolated of transferred)

Doug

[Terry_Reeves]

Phil, there has been a thread on this already, however the files on the subject at the NA show between 50 and 60 are believed to have been involved, but there appears to be no definitive figure. Casement's efforts were simply not effective, indeed many Irish soldiers who heard Casement's speeches were either incensed by them, or took no notice. There is little evidence that the German's subjected Irish POW's to brutal treatment, apart from some complaints had rations had been cut, but these, if they were true, appear to have been isolated incidents.

Out of interest, Germany did not really have a great deal of faith in this scheme, they felt it worth a try but pretty well lost interest in it, and those who volunteered to take part, once it became apparent that it had only attracted a handful of men.

Terry Reeves

[Ryegate]

Hi Phil_B

Yes, that is my understanding also. Apparently all Irish prisioners were moved to Limberg camp for the recruitment process and were initially treated very well.

They managed to recruit only 32 Irishmen from the huge number of prisoners taken to Limberg.

Those that refused were subsequently treated very badly and an outbreak of TB went untreated despite pleas from the authorities that treatment must be given to prisoners.

My grandfather was one of those men. He never recovered from the treatment he received at Limberg and as a consequence died at the age of 47.

Regards

Ryegate

[PhilB]

Thanks, gents - I searched for "Casement" but got no luck.

[Terry_Reeves]

Ryegate

I'm sorry, but there is no evidence in the files at the National Archives to support your assertions.

TR

[MartH]

Well my grandfather told me he learnt English when with the 27th Jaegers in Lockstedt Lager in 1916, he said from a man in the 28th Jaegers the Irish. I've search a lot for references to the 28th Jaegers, but never found any. It's peculiar considering how much documentation there is on the 27th, yet I have never found anything on the 28th.

He did say normal German army life in 1916 was very harsh.

Mart

[Ryegate]

Hi Terry

My apologies if what I have said is my understanding is incorrect but Doug appears to have read or heard of it as well.

I wish I could remember where I read these statements. I will have to look through my books to find the passages.

Maybe we have all been misinformed so it's worth checking out before we spread anymore 'gossip'.

Will let you know if I find where I found the info.

Regards

Ryegate

[centurion]

One of those echos of history as the French tried the same thing over a hundred year previously. Dillons regiment had been the leading Irish emigre regiment in the French service - (the Wild Geese) but with the French Revolution both battalions (one in Europe and the other in the French West Indies) defected from the 'godless republicans' and, paradoxically, ended up as part of the British Army. When Napoleon came to power he attempted (in part as a propaganda effort) to raise a new Dillons by recruiting from Irish PoWs with about as much success as did Casement and his new regiment had a few Irishmen in it and a lot of undesirables (such as men of various nationalities who had deserted from both sides more than once). Needless to say its moral and reliability was somewhat suspect.

The old Dillons served with distinction throughout the Napoleaonic wars and many of its veterans eventually settled in Canada. Doubtless some descendants were back in France in 1914/18

[ckop4]

The ‘Cork Examiner,’ of 1917, published an ‘interview’ with a repatriated Munster Fusilier POW. Pte. Burke had been captured at Etreux in August, 1914. In December 1914, Pte. Burke, and the other Irish prisoners, were moved to Limburg and he says that in the Spring of 1915, they were first visited by Casement. This resulted in three of the prisoners being recruited, according to Pte. Burke, who came back to the camp a fortnight later and attempted to enlist more of their fellow prisoners. When this attempt failed, the POWS were taken down to cells, presumably in small groups, for a couple of days.

Another day, Casement offered the POWs £10 each from his own pocket and spoke of the 10,000 Irish-Americans who would also join his Brigade. He also told them that if Germany lost the war, ‘he would send every man across to America and give him £10, and find employment for others that could not go to Ireland.’

Pte. Burke continues – ‘They took along young fellows and put them in the French lines away from us, about 60, and kept them away from us, fellows that they thought would not have enough of sense, and might turn, and they gave them good food and did not ask them to work. This was going on for about a month, and when they saw the chaps were not making any shape to join, except some fellows who joined now and again, and it ran a fortnight before anyone went near them – they turned sour and would call us for work at 5 o’clock in the morning, and would keep us at work outside all that day until it would get dusk. The sentries would ask us if we were going to join, and if a chap said ‘no’ they would turn and hit him with the rifles. Our food was also cut down, and each man would only get a small cut of bread each day, with black coffee, and no sugar or milk. At dinner we would have some soup, and vegetables, or ‘horse beans’ – they would never give potatoes or anything like that.’

He goes on to relate how the last time that Casement visited, one of the Munsters ‘flung a portion of an old clog at him which struck him on the head. After that he did not venture outside the French lines.’

After this incident, Pte. Burke does not mention Casement again. He goes on to say how only for the food parcels, ‘all the prisoners would be dead,’ and also relates how ‘a number of prisoners were sent to employment at mines and factories as well as on to farms, and may of these poor fellows returned to camp after having injured themselves to get away from their harsh treatment. Punishment would be administered to these men, and one form which this took was to put the prisoner into a hot press where he was kept for a couple of hours, being liberated in a weakened state.’ He also relates how two of his comrades were shot by the Germans.

Pte. Burke does not mention TB, but personally, I think that he does allude to it. The disease did carry a huge stigma in the past. In the interview, he says that he was at Limburg until July 1916 ‘when the Germans apparently took steps to separate them, for about thirty of them, including Private Burke, were sent to a place called Mannheim. There was a Board of Examination by Doctors, both Germans and Swiss, and all who failed to pass this examination were kept here for two months or thereabouts.’

Eventually he ‘was ‘passed’ for Switzerland, and was sent to Constance with others. He was about a couple of months in the Chateau D’Or before he and a party were sent to France.’

The interview concludes with ‘The Private, who is a well-set up young man, looks very well, and is rapidly regaining his old health and spirits, but at time shows traces of the strain which he underwent in his soul-trying experience.’

JPC

[Doug Johnson]

[/The Prisoner of War in Germany, Daniel J McCarthy, 1917 p119.

"The same attitude was met [re Wittenberg] in a general way in reference to the prevalence of tuberculosis in Limburg. The attitude of the foreign office and the army corps headquarters at Frankfort was repeatedly directed to the existance of the exceptionally large number of lung cases in the overcrowded barracks of the Irish prisoners of war at Limburg. Not only was no attention paid to it but officers from the army headquarters disputed the existance of tuberculosis there when the statement of the men ill in the barracks and their appearance would have made the diagnosis easy even for a layman, and when both in the Revier-Stuben and in the hospital the diagnosis boards at the head of the bed was open evidence to the contrary. When the Swiss commission for the internment of sick and wounded prisoners in Switzerland visited this camp the attention was again called to the disproportionately high percentage of lung cases in this camp. Confident in the ability and with faith in the German medical profession I offered to have a decision of this question and the necessity of a detailed survey of all the prisoners in the overcrowded barracks in order to prevent the spread of this disease, left to the commission of three German specialists whom I would name. Notwithstanding this nothing was done. Here again, as at Wittenberg, it was perfectly evident that lack of consideration of the Irish prisoner was intentional and a reprisal for his failure to cooperate in the formation of the Irish Brigade."

McCarthy M.D. was part of the US Embassy inspection team.

Doug

[Doug Johnson]

Irish Brigade

Try this one.

Doug

[Terry_Reeves]

Just a comment on this, from JPC's post.

"He goes on to say how only for the food parcels, ‘all the prisoners would be dead..."

The British Government actually stopped food parcels being sent by individuals, and groups such as Regimental POW funds, for sometime, to Irish and some POW's from English regiments caught up in this.

Terry Reeves

[Ryegate]

Hi

The last thing I would wish to do is create an argument over this but there appears to be enough evidence to support my first understanding that the Irish prisoners who were treated very well while in the process of being 'recruited' were treated very badly when they refused to be persuaded.

I remember now where I first received the information about the TB that was rife in the camp at Limberg although I would rather not implicate the person who gave me that information, mainly because she was extremely helpful to me and did a lot of research that I remain very grateful for. She has worked tirelessly for what appears to be years in her research of Irish soldiers and one regiment in particular. She is a professional person and I am certain she would not have given information that could be proved to be untrue.

As my grandfather suffered as a consequence of the treatment he received at Limberg camp for the rest of his very short life, I was told he would most certainly have received a pension. Unfortunately, if he did, that record has not survived.

Because of this information, I have read as much as I could find on this topic and all information has alluded to the appalling treatment of the Irish at Limberg and the fact that TB was rife and was left unattended despite calls that medical help must be administered. I am also informed that TB for some reason, was most prevalent amongst the Irish prisoners and this is most probably due to the treatment they received and way they were living in overcrowded conditions.

If all this information is wrong then we have surely been misinformed but it has to be said, there appears to be overwhelming evidence of the treatment meted out to the Irish who refused to be persuaded by the Casement recruitment methods.

I would also like to add that I don't necessarily think my version of the events is correct (I am after all, only advising on the information I have been given or read) but I am yet to find any information that states anything that would indicate a different scenario to that expressed by myself and others.

Regards

Ryegate

[PhilB]

A member has supplied the following information:-

Not that I understand the 'scheme' fully nor perhaps did my Great Uncle but he writes in his memoirs whilst a POW in Gottingen in 1914/15

''All Roman Catholics were ordered to parade..they were offered better accomodation (I believe at Doebritz) and better facilities for attending Mass and going to confession. ...the food was better and more plentiful- we seniors smelt a rat and advised them not to go but many of the fellows went, only to discover that it was a Scheme by Sir Roger Casement.''

[irishmen1916]

While the numbers of how many went with Casement vary 35-50, could anybody tell me what happen to these men after the war. Peter

[Terry_Reeves]

Essentially, nothing. Most were demobilzed in the normal way. The view was taken that they had joined to better their conditions rather than for any treasonable reason. Cpl Timothy Quinlisk, who was active in the recruiting, did I think forfeit his medals and his war gratuity. He was executed by the IRA later on, for allegedly being a British informer. Cpl Daniel Juilan Bailey, having been caught with Casement landing in Ireland, was put on trial for treason but the charges were withdrawn at the start of the hearing. L/Cpl Joseph Dowling, who landed from a German submarine, was captured , tried and sentenced to death. This was commuted to life imprisonment and he was later released as part of a deal to help facilitate the establishment the provisional Irish Government.

TR

[irishmen1916]

Thanks Terry for the quick reply. Peter

[ollydot]

When Casements attempts at 'recruitment' became known to the Irish troops in the trenches they made and burnt an effigy of him in view of the German lines.

[Stanley_C_Jenkins]

I must admit I had always had a sneaking regard for Sir Roger Casement, but having read the somewhat repugnant details in this thread I am revising my hitherto-favourable opinion. In fact, the more I learn about the leaders of what might be called the "non-constitutional" nationalists, the less I like them.

I have also been thinking about certain comments that have been made in other threads in relation to the executions of the 1916 Easter Rising leaders. In retrospect, what else could the authorities have done with men such as Casement, Connolly and Pearce? Treason is bad enough at any time, but in the middle of a major war?