Second Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment

[Stebie9173]

Jane,

Geoff's fantabulous Search Engine comes up with:

( http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search2.php )

Name: ARTHURS, ERNEST HENRY

Initials: E H

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Northamptonshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: 15/05/1916

Service No: 8001

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 7.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

(Ernest has an online service record in WO363. He was KIA 15-5-1916)

Name: BRENNAN, WILLIAM ALBERT

Initials: W A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment/Service: Northamptonshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: 15/05/1916

Service No: 18066

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Bay 7.

Memorial: ARRAS MEMORIAL

(William also has an online service record in WO363. He was KIA 15-5-1916)

Name: HADNAM

Initials: G W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Lance Corporal

Regiment/Service: Northamptonshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Date of Death: 15/05/1916

Service No: 8781

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 7.

Cemetery: BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

Name: MAYES

Initials: H W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Northamptonshire Regiment

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 15/05/1916

Service No: 18041

Additional information: Son of Arthur and Lucy K. Mayes, of 74, Albert Rd., Wellingborough, Northants.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 8.

Cemetery: BOIS-DE-NOULETTE BRITISH CEMETERY, AIX-NOULETTE

These men appear in the Times Casualty List on the 5th June 1916.

Killed:

Arthurs, 8001, E. H.

Brennan, 18066, L-Cpl W A

Hadham, 8781, L-Cpl, G W

Mayes, 18041, H.

DoW:

Hornstock, 16733 F.

Wounded:

Aldridge, 19469, Sgt H

Dawson, 9530 F H

Hobbs, 17286 J

Horn, 18102 E

Owen 16565 W A (Walter Archibald Owen, GSW Right Foot, "B" coy, 2nd Bn, date not stated but admitted to Hospital in England, 24-5-1916)

Rands 9508 C

Sparr 19543 F

Shellshock:

None

Wounded and Missing:

None

Missing:

None

= 4 killed, 7 wounded (not necessarily all 2nd battalion men, of course)

Steve.

[AlbertBland]

Steve

The list that you quoted above showing the wounded and dead in the Times, do you have the link or a copy of the page please?

Also in your experience if we did have the service record of Albert would that state the actual day he was wounded or is the information more vague in general?

Thanks

David

[Stebie9173]

I can send you a copy but I can't email it from here. I'll do that tonight. (I assume you mean the later one including Albert!)

In answer to question 2, the Service Records did include an exact date of wounding on the Casualty Form. The problem is that some of the pages (and indeed entire records) were lost in the fire, and those that were elsewhere at the time have also been later weeded to removed "unnecessary" (at the time) forms, etc.

As I noted on my last post 16565 W A Owen has some records regarding his wounding for pension purposes but the Casualty Form is missing on that record. They show when he was admitted to hospital in England, but not anything regarding his evacuation from the front line in France.

In overall answer, if we had the FULL service record, yes it would state the date of wounding, but from what there is likely to be available I would say it was 50/50.

Steve.

[AlbertBland]

Thanks Steve

Yes a copy would be great. You will also find I have sent you an interesting email with a picture kindly sent by another forum member. I also hope to send a photo of Grandad that my mum has. I'll post it here also when I get it.

Do you have a copy of the war diary you could email for the month at Aubers Ridge May 1915? If not I will purchase it from NA. I would like to follow the diary course of events as it would appear to be Alberts 'Baptism of fire' as you previously quoted. It is so interesting to read the actual notes as opposed to a modern interpretation of the events. There is so much more detail.

Did the 2nd Battalion become involved in any other notable events after Aubers Ridge but prior to Alberts wounding?

Thanks for your continued help and interest.

Kind regards

David

[Stebie9173]

I'll try and send you some War Diary stuff tonight, David. The Second Battalion (you will also see them referred to as the "58th" - their old pre-1881 Regiment number - and as the Steelbacks) also took part in the battle of Loos in September 1915, but were involved in the fringes of that battle rather than the middle (the 1st and 7th battalions were in the thick of things there...)

Their next major battle came at Contalmaison on the 7th July 1916, soon after the start of the Somme offensive. It looks likely that Albert missed that one because of his wounds received a month earlier.

In 1917 they played their part in the 3rd Battle of Ypres (a.k.a. Passchendaele) and in 1918 at Villers Brettoneux in April, before the were wiped out when they were surrounded and killed or taken POW almost to a man near the Aisne river on 27th May 1918. After reforming (again) they took part in the allied advance from August 1918.

See:

http://www.1914-1918.net/8div.htm

Steve.

[AlbertBland]

Thanks Steve

I look forward to your email.

Regards

David

[Sparky53]

Jane,

Geoff's fantabulous Search Engine

( http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/search2.php )

Steve.

Wow that is impressive - I didn't know it would do that.

That certainly pretty well confirms what you thought - that Tom was wounded early June but not recorded in the War Diary.

Thanks a lot Steve

Tom Ridge also has a Pension Record - he was discharged from the Royal Fusiliers - poor eyesight.

We have a picture of what must be him in his Fusilier uniform and some letters written by him while a Fusilier in Dover.

Jane

[Stebie9173]

Jane,

Does Tom have a 1914-15 Star? What date was it? Would it have been 24-10-1915 to Egypt/Gallipoli or something different to France? {Edit: I notice that he doesn't...}

What page of the VM/BWM Roll is he on?

This is what I can garner so far on Tom Ridge:

Enlisted at Longton, age 23 years, 1 month, 19-11-1914.

Posted to Royal Fusiliers Depot, No. 9997, 19-11-1914.

Posted to 6th Royal Fusiliers, 26-11-1914.

Discharged due to poor eyesight, KR 392 iii (a), 24-2-1915.

Re-enlisted, possibly c. late July 1915.

Rejoined Royal Fusiliers, No. 18636.

Transferred to Northamptonshire Regiment, No. 21507, 20-9-1915 as part of a Draft of 192 Privates* posted to the 1st Garrison Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.

To France after 1-1-1916.

Possibly wounded between 30th May and 1st June 1916.

Died of wounds (likely at No 6 Casualty Clearing Station), 1-6-1916.

Next of kin: Wife, Zillah Ridge (nee Blundred, m. 22-3-1914), 5 Edensor Terrace, Longton, Staffs.

Son: Harold (b.4-11-1914).

A miner prior to enlisting in 1914.

* Numbered 21367 Ashwin to 21558 Willman, in grouped alphabetical order by surname. The Draft formed part of the original contingent of the 1st Garrison Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment. The 1st Garrison battalion, having just been formed, assembled at Court Farm Camp, Whyteleafe, Surrey with the advance party arriving on the 18th September 1915. Various drafts joined them including a Draft of 216 men from the Royal Fusiliers (I know - I'm 24 men short! Possibly, the N.C.O.s) on the 20th under the command of H F G Turner and P J Brickwell.

After assembling the 1st Garrison battalion entrained at Warlingham on 23rd and 24th October 1915 (a weak stones throw from Whyteleafe) and sailed to the Dardenelles from Keynham Dockyard at 6pm on 24-10-1915 aboard H.M.T. "Empress of Britain". They passed Gibraltar on the 28th and weighed anchor at Malta from the 30th October to the 2nd November, before proceeding on towards the Dardenelles. Arrived at Mudros, 4-11-1915. Ordered to proceed to Anzac, 8-11-1915. Orders cancelled, 10-11-1915. Disembarked at Lemnos Harbour, 11-11-1915. Embarked on H.M.S. "Magnificent" for Egypt, 1-2-1916. Disembarked at Alexandria, 5-2-1916. Arrived at Arbain Camp, Suez, 12-2-1916.

As you can see from the above, that qualified everyone in the Draft for a 1914-15 Star. As you mentioned in you old, old posts, Tom didn't get a 1914-15 Star. I suspect that means that while he was drafted to the 1st Garrison battalion, he didn't actually depart to the Med with them. The Garrison battalions usually consisted of men who were not A1 fit. Perhaps Tom was examined when he got there and passed fit and went to the main Reserve battalions of the Northamptons and shipped to France in early 1916. It's an intriguing case!

Steve.

Edited 16 January , 2008 by Stebie9173

[Sparky53]

Steve

Thank you for your interest.

From Staffordshire Sentinel Wednesday 21/6/1916 Page 3

DIED OF WOUNDS

Pte Thomas Ridge, Northants Regiment husband of Mrs Ridge of 99 Edensor Rd, Longton. He enlisted in July last and was formerly employed by the Florence Coal and Iron Co. In addition to a widow he leaves 1 child.

The Victory & British Medal Roll : K/1/101 B16 Page 2960

No 14/15 Star

Cheers

Jane

[AlbertBland]

Hi All

I notice that in some of the diary entires that during offensives they refer to point numbers, 3 digit numbers which obviously marked points I presume along the enemy lines to pin point specfic attacks. Are there any maps existing showing these points? it seems trench maps are difficult enough to locate but do they even show this detail anyway?

Thanks

David

[great_molinko]

As we are talking about the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment here would it be possible for someone to look up what they were doing on the 25th January 1915? I dont know if he is high enough to be mentioned but I am looking for a Lance Corporal Henry Thompson who died and was buried at Estaires Communal cemetery and extension.

Many thanks

Stuart

[Stebie9173]

I'll add it to the list, Stuart!!

He won't get a separate mention, though. (99% certain!)

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Not my most "in-focus" shot!

Northampton Independent 6-2-1915

"A well known regimental boxer, Lance-Corporal H. Thompson of the 2nd Northants, son of Mr & Mrs Walter Thompson, of Knightley Road, is reported as having died of wounds. According to a letter from Sergt. Scott he was wounded on Jan 23rd and died two days after. Sergt. Scott adds: "I can assure you he was a very good soldier and a good N.C.O. His loss will be very much felt, and hard to replace in any platoon. All the men join with me in offering sympathy". Lance-Corporal Thompson who was 23 years of age, had served seven years with the colours [i.e. active service in the Army]. When he was hit he was apparently writing a message home, for an unfinished postcard addressed to a friend was found on him."

Steve.

[great_molinko]

Again Steve you find what is absolute gold dust!!! Thankyou so much, this I think is the only picture in the entire family of Henry Thompson!!!

Stuart

[Stebie9173]

Next time I'm at the Northampton archives, I'll try and get a better picture, Stuart.

I'll attach a copy to the war diary e-mail in a minute....

Steve.

[great_molinko]

Thanks just got the war diary, will read it tonight!! Many thanks

stuart

[Stebie9173]

David,

A further reference to Albert Bland being wounded - from a list of wounded in the Times of 2nd April 1917. He was a Sergeant by that point.

The number of men on the list suggests a fairly major action around that time. The two likely candidates are Boom Ravine on 17-2-1917 with the 6th battalion (the main list for those was in the Times on 21-3-1917, so possibly not), or far more likely - bearing in mind that he was in the 2nd battalion both before and after this date - the 2nd battalions attack at Moislains Ridge on 4th March 1917. The War Diary records casualties of 235 other ranks, killed, missing or wounded.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Having found where "X" marked the spot, a bit more digging gives....

Peterborough Advertiser 31st March 1917

Which means I'm missing another record of wounding...! Back to the drawing board....

Steve.

[Guest]

Hi I am trying to find some information about my great uncle Sgt William Stevens 2 Northants Regiment 204976 - All I know is that he died 27 May 1918, and is commemorated on the war memorial in Soissons, Aisne.  I was hoping to find the war diary to try to find out what happened to him - no idea even where to start, can anyone give me any advice, many thanks

[Stebie9173]

William Stevens would have been one of the men caught up in a German Offensive on the Chemin des Dames in the Aisne region near Paris, specifically at Berry au Bac in the case of the 2nd Northamptons. The 2nd Northamptons were in 8th Division which had just been heavily involved in battles east of Amiens in April 1918. March, April and May 1918 saw major German offensives, bolstered by units released from the Eastern Front, launched in an attempt to break the allied lines before the Americans reinforced the allies. 8th Division had been moved to a quieter part of the front line to rebuild and found themselves in the way of a new Offensive - Operation Blücher-Yorck - launched against the British and French. Many of the battalions of the 8th Division were virtually surrounded and many of their number were either killed or taken prisoner.

 

There is an epic topic on the forum here:

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/44335-aisne-chemin-des-dames-battle-may-june-1918

 

 

Though that might take some getting into, there is an overall summary of events involving 8th Division in post #17 on the first page.

 

 

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

If you have Ancestry access then the war diary for the day is here:

 

2nd Northamptons War Diary 27-5-1918

 

It is rather brief as there were not many officers left to write up events.

 

 

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

William Stevens does have some fragmentary service records online. These are mainly just his re-enlistment into the Essex Regiment in May 1908. He had previously served in the 4th Volunteer Battalion of the Essex Regiment (predecessors to the Territorial Force). I would guess that he served with the 4th Volunteer Battalion from about 1903 from when he was about 19 or so. He re-enlisted for 2 years in 1908 in the newly formed 8th (Cyclist) Battalion of the Essex Regiment, but probably extended his service up to the war. He was numbered as No. 42 in the 8th (Cyclist) Battalion of the Essex Regiment, and then renumbered as 325004 in March 1917 when a general renumbering exercise was carried out throughout the T.F.

 

His number in the Northamptonshire Regiment dates from 18 August 1917 when a group of Essex Regiment men were transferred from The Essex Regiment to the Northamptonshire Regiment at No 15 Infantry Base Depot at Etaples in France. The men had recently arrived in France on 30-7-1917 from the 8th Battalion for service on the Western Front. Initially intended to serve with 1st Battalion of the Essex Regiment, the group were needed by the 2nd Northamptons whom had recently taken heavy casualties on 31 July 1917 at the start of the 3rd Battle of Ypres. Following their switch of Regiments, they joined 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment on 20 August 1917.

 

Between, 1914 and 1917, William Stevens appears to have served in the UK with one of the incarnations of the 8th Essex - None of the battalions of the 8th Essex served overseas. See:

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/essex-regiment/

 

 

Steve.

 

 

Edited 11 June , 2019 by Stebie9173

[Guest]

Wow, thank you so much for that.  I will have a look at the links as you suggest - thanks for taking the time to reply Steve