KIA

[nshighlander]

Hi

I have a ?.Do collectors place a value on medals on the place where the person was KIA.If so why?Like they do on Reg or Btn.Lets say someone was KIA at Vimy would his medals be worth more than someone who was KIA First day on the SOMME.Also

for collectors.What do you think are the top 5 Reg or Btn to collect(medals).That could be a loaded ?Thanks for everyones time.

Cheers

Dave

[dycer]

Dave,

For a lavel playing field.Are we only talking "Pip,Squeak and Wilfred"?

George

[David Blue]

This is a very good question,

There is, for better or worse, a definite premium for casualties of certain key dates: July 1, 1916 of course, Jutland, a Kut defender, April 25, 1915-Gallipoli landing, July 31, 1917 or September 25, 1915. Canadian collectors would add April 9, 1917-however some UK collectors (as evidenced on medal lists over the years) don't value this more then say, May 3, 1917.

The general action where a soldier fell may also adds a premium, however much of this will also depend on the collectors interest: 1914 actions, Loos, 2nd Ypres, Somme etc. etc.

My collecting habits over 25 years have changed, however a consistency for me is, I have never been more or less drawn to a group based on the day he died. It is the story the medals will tell!

I do however put a special emphasis on Somme battle casualties, not just July 1, BUT all key engagements. Like the attacks on Regina Trench October 1, and 8th, and 2nd Battle of Ypres April 22-26th 1915. I also have a keen interest in the battles at the St. Eloi craters in April 1916. I could go on, and on.... But at the end, it will always be the story behind the medals, and responsibility to tell the story-no matter what the casualties date.

Regiments are of course a whole other kettle of fish! There are collectors I'm sure that would sell their children into slavery to have trio and plaque to the PPCLI or a RFC.

So happy hunting

David

[Terry]

Dave,

With Canadian medal groups. a casualty trio or pair seems to more or less nearly double the asking price. An infantry pair which might go for $125-150 now becomes a $250 group. A trio which normally is a $250 item becomes a $400 group.

For the CEF, a Vimy Ridge casualty also jacks up the price considerably, more so than Passchendaele, 2nd Ypres, etc.

Then you have all the other factors (unit, officer rank, etc.) to figure into the equation.

One of my own interests is CEF Prisoner of War groups. I now have four trios and four pairs, and I personnally feel that their worth is on a par with KIA groups, and perhaps even higher, as there were so few POW's compared with KIA's.

[dycer]

Sorry if we are, I should have added.

Trio(including 1914 Mons Star) awarded to a Territorial Royal Scot KIA March 1918.Priceless.

I may be biased though,he was my Uncle.

George

[Bill Alexander]

Hi. Terry, please clarify: [With Canadian medal groups. a casualty trio or pair seems to more or less nearly double the asking price. An infantry pair which might go for $125-150 now becomes a $250 group. A trio which normally is a $250 item becomes a $400 group.]

By this you mean only the medals and not additional commemoratives, like the Death Plaque or the Memorial Cross? In my opinion these items would add more to the value.

In reference to the original quesiton, the value of KIA's is significantly higher. David has outlined some of the factors that play in establishing value. In addition some collectors factor in rank, (generally the higher the rank the higher the value), others factor family name, and some, in Canadian cases, factor original battalion, (by service number).

I have found it strange that Vimy has such a premium over other Canadian battles. Yes it was a critical battle for Canadian nationalism, but other engagements were bitterly contested and requied great sacrifice on the part of the troops. In many respects 2nd Ypres, or Hill 70, or Sanctuary Wood are as important for understanding the soldiers' experience of war as Vimy.

[nshighlander]

Hi Dave

I think you are very right.To me it`s all about the story of the person.Sorry dycer I don`t understand what you mean?Some of the prices of the groups very so much from one dealer to another.Maybe it was a silly ?But you don`t know until you ask.

Cheers

Dave

[David Blue]

Hi. Terry, please clarify: [With Canadian medal groups. a casualty trio or pair seems to more or less nearly double the asking price. An infantry pair which might go for $125-150 now becomes a $250 group. A trio which normally is a $250 item becomes a $400 group.]

By this you mean only the medals and not additional commemoratives, like the Death Plaque or the Memorial Cross?

Bill and Terry,

Forgive me for taking the liberty of clarifying Terry's comments, I think Terry is saying that an infantry pair to a non casualty is $125-150, BUT as a casualty it now becomes a $250 group. Same with the trio: $400 seems to be the going rate today for a casualty trio.

Above estimates would be without plaque, cross, scroll or other original documentation etc.

Terry, please correct me if I misunderstood

Best wishes

David

[Terry]

Bill & David,

Hi guys; David, you are correct in sorting out my remarks, and Bill, these prices are I think average for groups consisting of just the medals (no plaques, memorial crosses,etc.) Those items would greatly increase the price.

Here is an example. Some time ago I purchased the following group from a prominent British dealer: War & Victory Medals to Lieut. James Sinclair, 87th Bn.; Memorial Cross (cased) named to him; 35th Bn. silver regimental athletics medal named as follows: 1915 Athletic Field Day 12 Lb Shot J.Sinclair. He was a Scot who had come to Canada, and on 5 April, 1915 he enlisted in the 35th Bn. Later he was promoted to sergeant, and then commissioned.

He was transferred to the 87th Bn, Canadian Grenadier Guards, in December, 1916, and commanded a platoon of D Company. A couple of days before the assault on Vimy Ridge he was wounded slightly but remained on duty. During the actual assault on 9 April he was badly wounded, shot in the spine, and finally died on 16 April. I have built up quite a file on him, courtesy of the National Archives, War Graves Commission, etc.

Now, I paid nearly $600 Canadian for the group. If you start with a base sum of $150 for a Canadian fighting battalion pair, then add for the fact he was an officer; tack on his story, with the fact that he was a fatal casualty of the most famous battle in Canadian history, and you have to decide for yourself "Did I pay too much for the group?"

You don't always want to put price tags on everything, but in this case I am quite happy to have a bit of Canadian history like the Sinclair medals in my collection.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Top five medal sets I have seen commanding a premium which were at least 3 to 4X what you would expect were:

1. Tank Corps - MM & Pair for a Cambrai casualty (£1,200)

Then £500+ for eah of the following:

2. Tyneside Scots - Pair, plaque & scroll to a 1 July 1916 casualty

3. Machine Gun Corps - 15 Star trio, inscribed MGC to a 21 March 1918 POW

4. Lancashire Fusiliers - 15 Star trio to a Gallipoli casualty

5. 8th East Surrey - Pair, plaque & scroll to a 1 July 1916 casualty - the footballers.

Not my cup of tea, but obscene amounts were paid for these sets - my wife would have killed me had it been me!

Ian

[nshighlander]

Hi Ian

With those groups.Was the price do to the action or was it the unit,that made the price high?What would you say were the top 5 units that people look for also the top 5 actions that people look for?

Cheers

Dave

[Raster Scanning]

Not my cup of tea, but obscene amounts were paid for these sets - my wife would have killed me had it been me!

Ian.

I remain rather vague when asked "and how much did that little lot cost ". The standard reply is " oh around 20 quid ".

Seem to work for me

[dycer]

Dave,

Sorry for the confusion

Pip,Squeak and Wilfred were post-War nicknames for the 1914,1914/1915 Star,War Medal and Victory Medal.

If you ignore the Family connection to the Trio I possess.I would think a Territorial Group including a 1914 Star would be at a higher premium than a Regular Group because of it's scarcity value but I'm sure someone will set the record straight

Equally if someone was collecting Medals in Regimental Seniority a Royal Scot Group may command a higher premium because it is the First British Infantry Regiment but again someone may choose to diisagree.

George

[nshighlander]

Thanks dycer.

I though someone was telling me off :lol:Thats funny because the $20.00 works for me to.Also ebay is driving to prices up on everything I find.

Cheers

Dave

[Bill Alexander]

An important point was introduced regarding value. The value of a set / group / pair or single medal is intrinsic to the buyer or owner. I know have paid more than "market value" for medals that I wanted. In this sense of the concept of value, the reasons for wanting the medals are the key. In my opinion, this is a major factor in determing value.

[Ian Underwood]

There is, for better or worse, a definite premium for casualties of certain key dates: July 1, 1916 of course,  Jutland, a Kut defender, April 25, 1915-Gallipoli landing...

To give an Australian perspective...the ongoing and deepening relationship between the Australian psyche and the Gallipoli campaign is seeing some astounding prices paid for casualty groups, especially for the more 'celebrated' battles of Lone Pine and the charge at the Nek.

Last November a very active ebay collector paid $2432 Aus for a lone pine casualty, MID group with the 1967 commemorative medalion. On todays currancy conversion, that's 1025 pounds. Item # 2202150021 for those who want a peak.

Interestingly, there's a current ebay auction for a 10th Light Horse survivor of the charge at the Nek that's climbing up there. 2 days to go and it's already at $910 Aus (384 pounds). I think in this case, the trooper's sheer luck on that fateful day is adding to the medals collectibilty. And the 10th ALH is a popular unit as well

ian.

[dycer]

Ian,

As a Pom surely there is a danger in this.

Clearly your effort in the War was not confined to Gallipoli.

Are the Collectors implying that the Austalian effort in France was secondary?Similar to the the campaigns in Italy (and dare I say it Burma) following the "D" Day Landings in WW2

George

[nshighlander]

Hi

Another ?To add.

Someone said paper work with the group.Would photo copies of the scroll(plus other info) drop the price instead of the original. Plus with the mothers cross.I have 2 lapel pins.One has brother on it the other has son.Would these be given the same as the mothers cross.I`, going to try and post pictures of them.

Cheers

Dave

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Top five medal sets I have seen commanding a premium which were at least 3 to 4X what you would expect were:

2. Tyneside Scots - Pair, plaque & scroll to a 1 July 1916 casualty

22/763 Pte. Frederick Smeatham

22nd (Service) Bn. 3rd Tynside Scottish

Northumberland Fusiliers,

Killed during the attack at La Boisselle July 1, 1916.

Commemorated on on the Thiepval Memorial

(Sadly no scroll)

David,

What a great plaque with superb patina!

Ian

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Hi Ian

With those groups.Was the price do to the action or was it the unit,that made the price high?What would you say were the top 5 units that people look for also the top 5 actions that people look for?

Cheers

Dave

Dave,

IMHO it was probably a combination of the 2!

Top four actions (IMHO) - British Army

1. Somme - 1 July 1916

2. Hill 60

3. Loos & Hill 70

4. Landing at Suvla

Now perhaps Kut, Retreat from Mons, Neuve Chapelle etc should be on the list - but these 4 seem to attract more than their fair share of interest.

Top six units IMHO - again open to debate, but if you are asking what PAIRS are making top prices at the moment, I would say:

1. Tank Corps - rare but what is coming on the market are late 1918 entries to BEF

2. MGC - some pairs are outstripping casualty pairs to infantry regiments

3. Anything Welsh

4. Anything Irish

5. Notts & Derby (7th Bn Robin Hood Bn) - a couple of big collectors with deep pockets

6. East Lancs (11th Bn Accrington Pals) - some singles are going for £30-£40

Ian

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Not my cup of tea, but obscene amounts were paid for these sets - my wife would have killed me had it been me!

Ian.

I remain rather vague when asked "and how much did that little lot cost ". The standard reply is " oh around 20 quid ".

Seem to work for me

Unfortunately my wife deals in glass at markets and knows the prices as she keeps her eyes open!!

Ian

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ian,

As a Pom surely there is a danger in this.

Clearly your effort in the War was not confined to Gallipoli.

Are the Collectors implying that the Austalian effort in France was secondary?Similar to the the campaigns in Italy (and dare I say it Burma) following the "D" Day Landings in WW2

George

I'm not a pom - I'm half english & half Irish and three of my grandparents were Irish

My list comes from what I see around in the market place - as I said not my taste!!

The ANZAC action at Poziers IMHO is very worhty of collecting casualties to but try and find the material!

Ian

[Ian Underwood]

Clearly your effort in the War was not confined to Gallipoli.

    Are the Collectors implying that the Austalian effort in France was secondary?

Who knows what goes on in the mind's of collectors, but I'd like to think they'd be aware of the great sacrifice and efforts of the Anzac division of the Western Front, and of the mounted Divisions in Palestine.

I don't think that anybody out there however, should under-estimate the level to which the Gallipoli campaign has embedded itself into the Australian psyche. It's perceived by most historians/commentators as being a 'Homeric epic' and the the single most important event in the country's move from colony to independent nation. When considering this - it's not hard to see why Gallipoli medal groups and casualty groups in particular are the blue chip items they are.

For reference, casualty pairs to AIF infantry seem to go around the $500-600 Aus (200-250 pounds) mark. I'd concur with the 'other' Ian about Poziers, and would also suggest Villers-Bretonneux, Bullecourt, Polygon wood, 3rd Ypres as worthy of collecting.

I'm interested in your list there, Ian. I've noted before that the RND has'nt figured in any of you other lists on other medals threads, surely they're a highly valued unit? I saw a collingwood bn trio non casualty fetch something in the vicinity of 290 pounds the other week.

ian.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Ian,

I was only quoting groups that I have personally been involved in the sale of - you are right with respect to the RND, but it is a question of sourcing material. In the last 2 years I have only seen one RN 1914 star.

I don't think collectors ignore the efforts or sacrifices of any regiment or corps or any country during WW1. But their collection tastes are not necessarily in tune with this. The sacrifices of the British army on the first day of the Somme always make me think twice, however I have no particular interest in acquiring any medals of 1 July casualties or survivors. My very limited collections restricted to units that members of my family served with.

The action of the Anzacs and Canadians is not forgotten, particularly when they held fast against the Germans in the Spring 1918 offensive.

IanB

[Bill Alexander]

Interesting to read the lists of the Imperial units and engagements. Would the Canadians Pals out there create a "Canadian" list of engagements and units?

To start:

2nd Ypres

Sanctuary Wood

Regina Trench

Vimy

Passchendaele

Canal du Nord?

Units:

PPCLI

RCR

RCD

CSEF

any Canadian Scottish battalion?

Other thoughts welcome.