4th Black Watch

[Black Watch]

I seem to have managed to identify nearly all the men killed on 9/5/15. (Thanks to Geoff's great search engine).

There appear to be 2 Serjeants killed that day. William Dick Brown 892, and Hugh Jarron 845. A report in the "Dundee Book" quotes Lt Sidney Stevenson

"I have no sergeants now. My other one was shot through the head when he was standing beside me."

Any way of finding out which one this was?.

Neil

Over to you Tom and Black Jock

[wullmackie]

Neil

SDGW show only the two mentioned for the 9th May, but a a search from 6th May to the 13th May shows only one other

Sgt 2056 John McDonald DCM KIA 8th May.

Born & Enlisted Dundee

Wull

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi Neil,

The other Sgt was L/Sgt Archibald 'Archie' Troup. A Coy attacked in 2 waves, the second wave had only just started the attack when the order to attack was countermanded. Any survivors of the first wave, and the second that had just gone 'owre thi bags', had to sit-it-out in No Man's Land until nightfall. Captain Steven was in the second wave.

Archie Troup was buried by his son. At the same ceremony, Company Sergeant Major Pyott buried his son. Unfortunately, Archie Troup's grave did not survive the war, and like many of 'The Forth', killed on this day, is remembered on Le Touret Memorial.

Sergeant John MacDonald died not long after being awarded the DCM. The award was given for gallantry at Neuve Chapelle. He fell asleep on a stretcher, having just had a coversation about how the next medal was to be a VC. John never woke from his sleep, and was believed to have died from a heart problem. John Macdonald's brother and friends buried him at Vielle Chapelle (He is now at the CWGC Cemetery at Cabaret-Rouge). He was given a decent military funeral by his comrades; the battalion pipers played 'Lochaber No More' and No 1 Platoon, with bayonets fixed, presented arms.

In addition to the loss of John MacDonald (just prior to the battle), Archie Troup, and Hugh Jarron; Sgt William Naismith was wounded. A Coy, had effectively lost all of its Sergeants.

Hope this helps

Tom McC

[Black Watch]

Thanks Wull & Tom. I saw Archie Troup on CWGC but it said he was a corporal, so I discounted him, although I may have read somewhere about "The Big Drummer" Sgt Troup being killed and buried by his son. So now itsl between Brown,Jarron and Troup.

Neil

[Black Jock]

Thanks Wull & Tom. I saw Archie Troup on CWGC but it said he was a corporal, so I discounted him, although I may have read somewhere about "The Big Drummer" Sgt Troup being killed and buried by his son. So now itsl between Brown,Jarron and Troup.

Neil

Hi Neil,

Can you check the "Dundee Book" I think it may be Lt Sidney Steven Sgt Brown is a Monifieth man. According to Pte Valentine of Monifieth, who was in the same company, Brown died leading his platoon into action. Lt Steven died at the Battle of Loos. There must be an account somewhere I have'nt come accross anything in the local papers of the time.

Tom

[Black Watch]

It was Lt Sidney Stephen I quoted. The info from the Dundee book I got from Tom I think.

Interesting about Private Valentine. Is it possible I can find Sgt Browns Platoon? Up to now I've only assumed he was part of A company as he was one of the days casualties.

I originally bought his plaque to resell, but its been on the wall a for few months and now hes part of the family.

Neil

Where did you get the info about Private Valentine btw?

There's a Valentine in N/A no 893 Sgt Brown's is 892. Friends from Monifieth who joined up together?

[Black Jock]

It was Lt Sidney Stephen I quoted. The info from the Dundee book I got from Tom I think.

Interesting about Private Valentine. Is it possible I can find Sgt Browns Platoon? Up to now I've only assumed he was part of A company as he was one of the days casualties.

I originally bought his plaque to resell, but its been on the wall a for few months and now hes part of the family.

Neil

Where did you get the info about Private Valentine btw?

There's a Valentine in N/A no 893 Sgt Brown's is 892. Friends from Monifieth who joined up together?

Neil,

Stevenson must be a typo! Information was probably the DPJ for that year, Valentine, is probably a mate of Brown, Brown's middle name Dick and is common in Monifieth, he worked as a joiner with Tullis of M'fieth, and was a Bisley shot, he went out at the begining of the war with the 4th. I cant guess what sergeant was with Sydney Steven, given that there were 4 platoons in a company, one is wounded, Naismith, and three others killed,perhaps an account will turn up.

You have a quest, good luck!

Tom

[Black Jock]

Neil,

I cant find the publication or the date for the above, "senior moments!" whit! If something turns up I will let you know. It is sad a "Death Penny" leaving a family.

Tom

[Black Watch]

It is sad a "Death Penny" leaving a family.

Tom

I got it at Curr and Dewars a few months ago. It would likely be part of a house clearance. As you say - Sad.

Neil

[Black Jock]

I got it at Curr and Dewars a few months ago. It would likely be part of a house clearance. As you say - Sad.

Neil

Its good you have it, and I,m sure you will find out more about the man.

Tom

[Tom A McCluskey]

Tom,

The extract from The Dundee Book. Part of Lt Steven's account of Aubers Ridge:

… you must have been out for your afternoon stroll or lying down for an afternoon nap when we were having it so hot! I never realised at the time it was Sunday. If I had, I think that given the chance I would have gone twice to church without a grumble instead of being out here! … Men were being knocked out right and left … I can’t describe it. No one can have any conception of what it is like unless they have been through it… One man his head blown off and another was screaming for a bandage. It is all too terrible to describe… I can’t try. All I can say is that our Company lost between 60 and 70 men …. I have no sergeants now. My other one was shot through the head when he was standing beside me.

Neil,

Joe Lee, not long after Aubers Ridge, drafts the poem "I CANNA SEE THE SERGEANT". It is in Ballads of Battle page 38.

There is a small intoductory note:

Those readers who have recollection of the drilling days of the 4th Battalion Black Watch may remember to have heard some words-often, fortunately not entrely intelligible - which we rendered lustily as a marching song, to the Gaelic melody, "Horo My Nut-Brown Maiden." In these strenuous and sad time the phrase, "I Canna See the Sergeant, " which formed the owre-turn o' the sang, has often assumed a new and deeper significance.

"I CANNA SEE THE SERGEANT"

I CANNA see the sergeant,

I canna see the sergeant,

I canna - see the - sergeant, *

He's owre far awa'.

Bring the wee chap nearer,

Bring the wee chap nearer,

O bring the - wee chap - nearer -

He's owre bloomin' sma'

We canna see the sergeant,

The five foot five inch sergeant,

We canna - ss the - sergeant

For smoke, and shell, and a'-

Now we can see him clearer,

Now we can see him seare -

Upon the topmost parapet

He's foremost o' us a'!

We canna see the sergeant,

The sma', stout-hearted sergeant,

We canna - see the - sergeant,

He's dead and gone awa'.

Bring the wee chap nearer,

Bring the wee chap nearer,

O, he has grown the dearer

Now that he's far awa'!

* To be sung in staccato fashion.

Hope this is of interest.

Aye

Tom McC

[Tom A McCluskey]

Neil,

Yesterday, I was passing the beautifully kept Cabaret Rouge cemetery, just north of Arras, so I thought I'd pop in. There are a few of the 4th Bn The Black Watch boys in there. One of whom was Sgt John MacDonald DCM. Died on the 8th May 1915, the day before the Battle of Aubers Ridge. Here is his grave marker.

Aye

Tom McC