Guest Stephen Harry Posted 22 January , 2004 Share Posted 22 January , 2004 Hello everyone, My Grandfather, served in an Irish regiment in WW1 (alongside Canadians?). I have his Army discharge papers in storage, however the portion that bears his medals has been erased. From other members of the family I believe he was awarded the 1914 Star (with bar?) that he was mentioned in dispatches and also (apparently) given a field commission. My question is how one could go about obtaining a copy of this discharge paper, or more likely, access to some record that contains the full list of his medals. I have absolutely no idea where the medals themselves are. I thank you in advance for any information or help you can give. Stephen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 22 January , 2004 Share Posted 22 January , 2004 Hello Stephen, welcome to the forum. If you go top-left of this page and click the link to The Long, Long Trail, you will there find a section called 'Grandads War', which tells you all about it. As a commissioned officer, it is highly likely that his papers will be available for you to read and copy, at the National Archives (formerly Public Records Office) in Kew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 22 January , 2004 Share Posted 22 January , 2004 Thank you very much for the pointer! I think I have quite a bit of information to go on considering I have his discharge papers etc. I will be leaving the country in few weeks though, so it may be better to request a "report" as detailed on the site...I should email to get a quote, but does anyone have a ball park figure for what this costs? Stephen Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Well, no response from the "report site" so I emailed again today. In the meantime, does anyone know anything about the Royal Ulster Rilfes? It appears this was my GrandFathers Unit, though I am unsure of which Battalion he was in. Old family tales include his seeing a Cavalry charge at the beginning of the War. He may have also served attached to the Canadians at the first battle of Ypres. And although I can only read "1914 Star" and "British War..." there seems to have been a medal erased from the discharge certificate. Other family members are under the impression it was a MM and /or CGM. (Mentioned in Dispatches also arises...as I'm sure it does quite frequently) Following his time in this unit he joined the School of Instructors at the Curragh Training Camp where he seems to have been finally discharged with the rank of BQMS. Any help much appreciated. Stephen Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 In the meantime, does anyone know anything about the Royal Ulster Rilfes? Stephen. If he was in the R.U.R., then he was serving after 1920 (the year that the Royal Ulster Rifles came into existance) Was he possibly of the "Royal Irish Rifles" ? Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Following his time in this unit he joined the School of Instructors at the Curragh Training Camp where he seems to have been finally discharged with the rank of BQMS. ... although this rank seems to indicate an artillery unit (Battery Quarter-Master Sergeant). Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Thanks guys. I understand BQMS to mean "Battalion Quarter Master Sergeant". He enlisted in Belfast on 7th August 1914. This Discharge paper clearly states "Royal Ulster Rifles". His number was 7006456 and I believe RUR numbers begin 7006001. Rank is Sergeant. He seved "...8 years one hundred and ten days with colours... and "...One year, two hundred and eleven days..." in the Reserve. The date of discharge is given as the 24th December 1920. In addition to this discharge paper is another from the "School of Instructors" in Curragh. His number here is different VR2585 (Volunteer Reserve?). Rank BQMS. The paper states that he was attested on the 8th July 1922 with two years and 28 days to reckon. Discharge date on the 2nd paper is the 13th August 1924. RUR on discharge perhaps...there is another family story that his original Regiment was small and disbanded. 8 years with the colours and 2 with the reserves making a total of 10 perhaps? There can't be many who made it that long in those days, but "We will remember them". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Stephen Harry said: Thanks guys. I understand BQMS to mean "Battalion Quarter Master Sergeant". He enlisted in Belfast on 7th August 1914. This Discharge paper clearly states "Royal Ulster Rifles". His number was 7006456 and I believe RUR numbers begin 7006001. Rank is Sergeant. He seved "...8 years one hundred and ten days with colours... and "...One year, two hundred and eleven days..." in the Reserve. The date of discharge is given as the 24th December 1920. In addition to this discharge paper is another from the "School of Instructors" in Curragh. His number here is different VR2585 (Volunteer Reserve?). Rank BQMS. The paper states that he was attested on the 8th July 1922 with two years and 28 days to reckon. Discharge date on the 2nd paper is the 13th August 1924. RUR on discharge perhaps...there is another family story that his original Regiment was small and disbanded. 8 years with the colours and 2 with the reserves making a total of 10 perhaps? There can't be many who made it that long in those days, but "We will remember them". Stephen As Croonaert pointed out the Royal Ulster Rifles did not come into existance until 1921, prior to this the regiment was known as the Royal Irish Rifles. RUR is on his discharge papers due to the fact that this would have been the regiment he was discharged from post 1921 and not the one he fought with during the great war, this would most likely have been the RIR. http://rurmuseum.tripod.com/history.htm Have you checked the online MICs for his medal entitlement? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Stephen. Just had a little search around, and in your case, it does stand for "Battalion Quarter Master Sergeant" . This is the rarer of the two that the initial can stand for in the Brit. Army. The discharge paper's mentioning of R.U.R., being dated 1920 and showing his post 1919 Army number aren't a great deal of help in finding his WW1 service. Do you know his 1914 unit? (I'd guess at the R.I.R. if I was searching for his online MIC) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Thanks, but what's an "online MIC" and where do I look that up? Does this detail mean that I will not be able to find out (using these discharge numbers) what unit he was actually in, where he fought, or any further information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 1 April , 2005 Share Posted 1 April , 2005 Stephen Harry said: Whats an online MIC and where do I look that up <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's the Medal Index Card that shows the medal entitlement. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 Wow!I got a result! Same name rank and yes! RIR! I'll keep you posted! UPDATE: Not much there... Name. Creevy, John. Corps. R.Ir.Rif Rank. Sgt. Regtl No. 9575 Medal: Victory Roll B/104 B11 Page. 1540 Medal: British ditto ditto ditto Remarks: Retd (?) (992 KR 1923) 83/08/"Illegible" or 8362 "Illegible" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 Wow!I got a result! Same name rank and yes! RIR! I'll keep you posted! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Excellent! Please do!!! Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 UPDATE: Not much there... Name. Creevy, John. Corps. R.Ir.Rif Rank. Sgt. Regtl No. 9575 Medal: Victory Roll B/104 B11 Page. 1540 Medal: British ditto ditto ditto Remarks: Retd (Retired?) (992 KR 1923) 83/08/"Illegible" or 8362 "Illegible" IS this going to be of any use? Can I find the exact unit from this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 Stephen, Can you post a copy of the card as it will be easier to interpret? It appears he was awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal only which means he first saw active service after the 01/01/1916 (as he was not awarded a Star). A check of the actual Medal Rolls for the BWM and VM may give you a battalion..... unfortunately these are not available on line so someone will have to have a look at National Archives. The Kings Regulations reference will indicate why he was discharged. There are a few guys who have details of what they mean sho should be able to assist here. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 The Kings Regulations reference will indicate why he was discharged. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello Tim The Kings reg shown does not relate to why the man was discharged but why his medals were returned. This particular regulation has cropped up in another thread within the past 24 hours or so but I am afraid I can't find it. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 2 April , 2005 Share Posted 2 April , 2005 Thanks Max so it does. Saw the Para 992 and was thinking 392? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 3 April , 2005 Share Posted 3 April , 2005 Stephen, According to his Medal Index Card he was a Sgt in the Royal Irish Rifles and first saw active service after the 01/01/1916 being entitled the the British War Medal and Victory Medal only. It appears his medals were returned vide Section 992 of the Kings Regulations. I don't know what this means but perhaps some else can assist. His discharge papers tell a bit of a different story though...they advise he enlisted on the 07/02/1914 at Belfast and discharged from the Royal Ulster Rifles on the 24/12/1920 at Edinburgh (as they were then) and was entitled the the 1914 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal (I think this entry has just faded). He obviously then signed up for another engagement between 1922 and 1924...this one appears to be with the Irish Army? He appears to have been attached to the School of Instruction at Curragh. I would suggest that he did join the army on 07/02/1914 but probably did not see active service until after the 01/01/1916 hence his MIC recording two medals only. The entry on his Discharge Certificate, which appears to have been issued in 1932 a long time afterwards, is probably a mistake. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 3 April , 2005 Share Posted 3 April , 2005 Thanks very much for that. My Grand Fathers life is something of a mystery, the fact that he appears to have served in two armies at this time (particularly) may shed some light on the reason he left Ireland and never returned or contacted his family again. I'll keep digging into things, but may I ask how accurate the MIC's are? Has anyone else uncovered a discrepancy between an MIC and a discharge paper? Would there be a way of looking into his pension? I believe he received some form of Army pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 3 April , 2005 Share Posted 3 April , 2005 Stephen, I may well be wrong. I can just imagine the army would be more inclined to make a mistake all that time later and assume he was entitled to a 1914 Star because he enlisted in 1914. Certainly I have seen mistakes with Medal Index Cards, but in my experience the vast majority are usually correct. Not sure about pensions but I think there are some records at NA. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stephen Harry Posted 3 April , 2005 Share Posted 3 April , 2005 Thanks I appreciate all this "sharing". When were the MICS written then? I know that if my discharge papers were incorrect I would have returned or had corrected. The MIC is a little different in that (I assume) the soldier hardly ever saw this record. The real problem is that I have no idea where his medals are. If they were returned under that Kings Regulation then determining that regulation may shed a little more light on his life. I know that conversations took place with him where he mentioned operating with the Canadians, being gassed, going over the top, receiving a Field Commission? He was bayonetted (stomach and / or legs) and I believe survived a moment in a trench with Germans pouring in....he didn't talk about that..."I'm here today" was all he said to my Mother. I think the most I will ever have to pass on to my family, is a "sense" of the man rather than any specifics...better than nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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