Death Plaque on Ebay...

[Smith64]

I've never had a death plaque myself, but from the photos I got the idea that the soldier's name is in relief...

But this plaque on sale on Ebay the name seems engraved: see the photo at the bottom of the page at

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WW1-death-plaque-pen...1QQcmdZViewItem

(or , more easily, http://tinyurl.com/282yrt ), where the detail of the name is enlarged.

Is it possible that some names were engraved and others in relief? Or all the names are engraved and I'm mistaken in believing them in relief? Or is it a fake item ?

Thanks for explanations...

Elena

[pbrydon]

I have never seen a plaque with the details engraved before. In my opinion this item is not genuine.( ie as issued )

P.B

[Guest KevinEndon]

the owner has the guts to say that some poor souls name has been removed and the new name engraved, credit to the seller.

names on plaques which I have seen are not engraved but stand out, I have yet to see an original engraved plaque, they may well exist, hope that helps

Kevin

[welshdoc]

We have covered this before on the forum but the 2 schools of thought still did not agree. That these are all either erased and engraved or that there were some late isssue plaques engraved in Australia or New Zealand.

[findabetterole]

Elana... Walk away from this one. The item in the box behind the one for sale, looks to be one of those 'all-in-one' reproductions that have been doing the rounds as of late.

They are all plaster!

Seph

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Subject to the circumstances being "apporoved", engraved "replacement" plaques were being offered by the War Office (WO) as of 1930, on payment of a fee of 5 shillings. I dont know when this practice started or ended, but September 1930 is a date for which I have seen solid & direct WO evidence. I also have a note that this was half the normal fee because the plaques were no longer being cast and the replacements were being sourced from unissued or unclaimed plaques.

The same source values a "scrap" (ie unclaimed) plaque at 5 pence.

Whether the one on e-bay is geniune or not I couldnt say, - but TC Kraseman's wife is named in his CWGC entry so there may be reason to believe that his original plaque had been issued in the normal way, as there is no obvious reason for it not to have been. A check on his service medal records may be worthwhile in order to see if there is any indication of them being returned unissued and then maybe being claimed within the ten year deadline. This could possibly point towards a late claim on the plaque.

I have no idea how widespread this practice of recycling plaques may have been, and it may have in fact been fairly rare (?). Nor do I know what form of engraving may have been used, or whether the recycled plaques were marked in any way to show they had been processed by the WO.

It is also probably pertinent to record that the particular man who's record was the source of the relevant WO statements was an Officer, and his plaque had been assumed to have been destroyed along with his Military Cross and service medals in circumstances which would have caused some "sympathy" at the WO (certainly in 1930). Also, his father was a man of some standing and had contributed to the war effort. Whether replacements would have been offered to the kin of Other Ranks in similar situations - who knows ?

regards - Tom

[pbrydon]

Tom,

Not quite certain of your " bottom Line", are you saying this could be a genuine late issue plaque bought by his relatives ?

P.B.

[welshdoc]

"Subject to the circumstances being "apporoved", engraved "replacement" plaques were being offered by the War Office (WO) as of 1930, on payment of a fee of 5 shillings. I dont know when this practice started or ended, but September 1930 is a date for which I have seen solid & direct WO evidence. I also have a note that this was half the normal fee because the plaques were no longer being cast and the replacements were being sourced from unissued or unclaimed plaques."

now this is interesting as for the first time we seem to have solid evidence for the issue of engraved plaques. Most of the ones we have seen are clearly erased as the colour in the tablet has lost its patina. The one on the auction site seems be erased and the name seems very bright. I am presuming it is an original bronze rather than a modern copy.

[Max]

I am presuming it is an original bronze rather than a modern copy.

It does look like an original piece that has been erased, and engraved fairly recently (as per the sellers spiel)

Andy

[PhilB]

I would guess that the engraving is fairly recent judging by how little darkening the letters show?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Tom,

Not quite certain of your " bottom Line", are you saying this could be a genuine late issue plaque bought by his relatives ?

P.B.

Genuine late issue ? - my "bottom line" is - I dont know ! - and I dont think anybody else does either.

What I do know is that I've see positive, cast-iron, A1 sourced information which shows that dismissing engraved plaques out of hand as being "fakes" of one sort or another doesnt stand up. But, unfortunately the existence of bona-fide engraved plaques would ease the passage for someone out to make a buck or two.

With no reference at all to the current case on e-bay ........................................ I would suggest that if such a plaque were to be offered, then look at things like the man's name (unique or not ?) - date of death - what action ? - place of burial or commemoration .............. Say for example one came up and the man had a unique name, was Tyneside Scottish, and he was Kia 1st July 1916, and he was buried in Gordon Dump Cemetery - and his plaque was engraved rather than cast. - Um, difficult one - huh !?

Then again ......................................

regards - Tom

[welshdoc]

I dare say though that many families bought a plaque had em erased and engraved just like medals when lost. The important thing is, as happened in this case is the vendor clearly states that fact .

[Smith64]

the owner has the guts to say that some poor souls name has been removed and the new name engraved, credit to the seller.

names on plaques which I have seen are not engraved but stand out, I have yet to see an original engraved plaque, they may well exist, hope that helps

Kevin

Oh, I see...I hadn't read the description carefully, so I didn't notice it was told that the name was not the original one!

Actually I was not interested in buying this plaque, but just wondered why it looked so different from the others!

Thanks everybody, I've learnt a lot of things!

Elena

[niimmm]

Oh, I see...I hadn't read the description carefully, so I didn't notice it was told that the name was not the original one!

Actually I was not interested in buying this plaque, but just wondered why it looked so different from the others!

Thanks everybody, I've learnt a lot of things!

Elena

Hello all, very intresting reading all this. I sold the plaque!

I bought Krasemans medals and docs and with it this plaque, knowing it not to be originally Krasemans plaque but someone else.

It was obvious that the orginal name has been removed and Krasemans put in.

This made me very sick because the original man had fought and died and some idiot had removed his name therefore in my mind removing his memory.

I therefore didnt want the plaque so put it up for sale and quite clearly sated it had had one name removed and Krasemans added.

I photgraphed it in front off my Great Uncles plaque that was fitted into a brass frame many years ago.

Hope this all helps,

Jim.

[Max]

Thanks Jim

[yellow]

I think you did really well with this one price wise. I can only get 33 pounds for examples that havent had the name removed.

[niimmm]

I think you did really well with this one price wise. I can only get 33 pounds for examples that havent had the name removed.

Many thanks.

Having all his medals and loads of docs I would love to have his real plaque, if anyone has it I would pay very good money.

Also to add to his file if anyone has a picture of him I would be very gratefull.

Many thanks,

Jim.

[auchonvillerssomme]

There are lots of people who take a moral stance on this subject, the plaque was erased, nothing you can do about that, it was then engraved with another mans details, either way a man is being remembered. The plaque is only one part of a memorial to both men. Would I condone this act? never, do I accept it happened? yes.

Yellow, Ive not seen many plaques go for 33 quid on ebay, if you have any to men killed 1st July 1916 I will give you 34 quid for them no probs.

Mick

[yellow]

You've not seen many plaques on eBay for 33 pounds for two reasons:

1. You havent bookmarked those plaques to multiple recipients.

2. Your neglecting lots listed by those recognised medal dealers, who buyers assume they will never get a bargain from.

Checking through my eBay folder I made the following:

Charles Ellis - £33.05

Michael O'Donnel - £35.00

Arrthur Church - £37.50

Ive found eBay is a funny place some people on there will go out of there way to argue with you about your listing even when the item is only a few quid!

[niimmm]

There are lots of people who take a moral stance on this subject, the plaque was erased, nothing you can do about that, it was then engraved with another mans details, either way a man is being remembered. The plaque is only one part of a memorial to both men. Would I condone this act? never, do I accept it happened? yes.

Yellow, Ive not seen many plaques go for 33 quid on ebay, if you have any to men killed 1st July 1916 I will give you 34 quid for them no probs.

Mick

No! Krasemans real plaque still exsits while the man whos was rubbed out is now gone so Kraseman has 2 and the other poor chap has none.

If someone took my Great Uncles plaque and rubbed out his name to replace with someone else I would be very upset.

Jim.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Jim sorry I didn't notice the original plaque was still in existance, who has it?

Mick

[Jim Strawbridge]

Jim sorry I didn't notice the original plaque was still in existance, who has it?

Mick

Mick, I think what Jim meant was that as the plaque that he had commemorated someone else (but had been erased) then it is a good assumption that Kraseman's original plaque must still exist. That is not to say that he knows where it is.

[auchonvillerssomme]

That would assume then that the plaque was made up to enhance the value of the lot rather than to innocently commemorate a man whose plaque is missing. If thats the case then this vandalism has been perpetuated by selling it on.

Mick