Tank Corps - Ireland

[hen190782]

... and another two:

[hen190782]

... and the another two:

PM me if you want the full resolution versions.

Nigel

[ARMAGH]

Some more offerings from the Belfast Telegraph (1921)

Nigel

Not tanks, but might be of interest:

Nigel

PM me if you want full resolution copies.

Very interesting Nigel,Which Regiment are the Auxiliaries in? What headress are they wearing?

Many Thanks

Joe

[hen190782]

Joe

It is difficult to tell, I think the focus of the picture is on the vehicles rather than the men.

However, two of the men standing on the front vehicle seem to be wearing headress of a scottish regiment whilst the man with the rifle near the front of the vehicle seem to be wearing headress with a hackle ... could be Royal Irish but could also be Royal Fusiliers.

I have emailed the image to you.

Nigel

[woodfield]

Nigel,

Apologies ofr not replying. I was out of circulation for awhile. Will drop you a pm.

Thanks,

Donal

Donal,

If you want the full-resolution image, drop me a PM ... already given a copy to museumtom!

Nigel

[hen190782]

Donal

I now have pictures of 12 "armoured vehicles" from the Belfast Telegraph, 1911-1922.

Nigel

[ARMAGH]

Joe

It is difficult to tell, I think the focus of the picture is on the vehicles rather than the men.

However, two of the men standing on the front vehicle seem to be wearing headress of a scottish regiment whilst the man with the rifle near the front of the vehicle seem to be wearing headress with a hackle ... could be Royal Irish but could also be Royal Fusiliers.

I have emailed the image to you.

Nigel

Thanks Nigel

The Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary (ADRIC), generally known as the Auxiliaries or Auxies, was a paramilitary organization within the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) during the Irish War of Independence.

They wore either RIC uniforms or their old army uniforms with appropriate police badges, along with distinctive Tam-o-shanter caps

[hen190782]

... so their uniforms could be a mixture of Black (RIC) and Tan (Army)

[val brown]

This is the full glass plate mage of the newspaper scan in post 125. The info with the photo is Henry street Dublin 5/7/1922 Nelsol's pillar is in the backround. The name of the Rolls is "Custom house". The Puppet with the noose around it, refers to "Rory O Connor" one of the IRA leaders who had just been captured.

The other image is I belive the same car thats in this image, photo looks to be the same location.

[gaelgoir]

The bottom photo is definitely in Henry street Dublin with the GPO to the right and Nelson's Pillar ahead. However there are no blank windows like those in the top photo and i suspect that photo is taken at some barracks. I expect that the scene has changed over the years but I cannot match the locatiions in my mind.

[gaelgoir]

Rory O'Connor was captured at The Four Courts during the Civil war. That implies that the photo is taken between 28 June and 5 July 1922 during the fighting in O'Connell street after the Four Courts was blown up and the Irregulars captured. The Troops would be Free State Troops (pro Treaty Forces)

[gaelgoir]

This may be helpful to this section of the forum, It gives what appears to be a complete listing of armoured vehicles at the time. It also shows the distribution with a considerable force in Dublin which would not have been for training - the main training would have been in Curragh. The southern area does not seem to be coveredmaybe that was a different division because there is no description of forces in the Cork Limerick Tipperary Waterford areas where there were many barracks and posts.

Hearts & Mines by William Sheehan lists the distribution of troops in the 5th divisional area on 1011-1919

HQ Curragh

17th (AC) Tank bn with

8 heavy tanks

6 mediun A whippets

4 medium B whippets

18 armoured cars (2 tank corps and 16 MGC)

Ulster brigade area

5 armoured cars (MGC)

Dublin Brigade

11th reserve bn MGC

17th (AC) tank bat HQ Marlborough Barracks

4 Heavy tanks Marlborough Barracks

4 heavy tanks Marlborough Barracks reason for repetition not clear if these were additional

2 medium A whippets Marlborough Barracks

2 medium A whippets Ship st barracks

2 medium A whippets Marlborough Barracks reason for repetition not clear if these were additional

4 mediun D whippets Marlborough Barracks

2 armoured cars (TC)

4 Armoured cars MGC ship street barracks

1 armoured car vice regal lodge

Curragh brigade

command armoured car company HQ and two armoured cars Curragh

HQ and two armoured cars Detachment Mullingar

HQ and two armoured cars Detachment Maryborough

[Sidearm]

Thanks for posting this list. It's the first I've heard of Medium D tanks In Ireland.

Gwyn

[mhifle]

Hi,

I just found this at the NA from a Cabinet Review on Ireland 7 Dec 1920

Regards Mark

SECRET.

C P 2256.

9

THE CABINET.

MECHANICAL TRANSPORT, ARMOURED CARS AND OTHER

FORMS OF PROTECTION FOR TROOPS IN IRELAND.

MEMORANDUM BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR.

I circulate herewith a memorandum showing what has been and is being done to

meet the Irish situation.

W. S. C.

THE WAR OFFICE,

7 th December, 1920.

A.—MECHANICAL TRANSPORT.

1. The following table shows the military mechanical transport in Ireland on the

31st March, 1920, and the subsequent increases which have been made.

The policy which has been followed is that demands from the General Officer

Commanding-in-Chief, Ireland, are met with the utmost possible speed.

As will be seen, already since the 31st March, 1920, the mechanical transport in

Ireland has been more than doubled, and in fact additional transport over and above

the demands of the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, has, at the suggestion of the

War Office, been provided :—

Military Mechanical Transport in Ireland on 31st March, 1920, and shipped

there or in process of being shipped since that date.

Lorries: Cars: Vans: Ambulance: Motor cycles (solos and side cars):

(i.) In Ireland on 31st March, 1920- 156: 46: 290: 62: 332:

(ii.) Shipped to Ireland from 1st April, to 31st October, 1920- 319: 64: 379: 42: 331:

(iii.) Further increases—

(a.) Completed by 8th December, 1920- 39: 11: 68: 19: 87:

(b.)To be completed by 2nd January, 1921- 65: *: *: 75: 10: 80:

(c.) To be completed by l5th January, 1921- 24: 18: 82: *: *:

B.—ARMOURED CARS.

2. There were 41 armoured lorries in Ireland on the 31st March, 1920. Some of

these are now past repair, but roughly 25 are running. Since then 48 armoured cars

(Peerless) have been sent. A further six are being sent on the 8th December, while

six of the new Rolls-Royce armoured cars due from factory next week will be

despatched on receipt. 16 more Peerless armoured lorries (from the 32 retained in

England for emergencies) are being sent in the course of December, and 26 new Rolls-

Royce armoured cars as delivery can be obtained. A further 16 Peerless will be

despatched later if situation in Great Britain permits.

3. Experiments in armouring Ford cars have shown their unsuitability for military

purposes. It is not yet known if the Royal Irish Constabulary will accept this type—

the experiments were carried out for the Royal Irish Constabulary as well as for

the Army.

4. Since the 31st March, 4,000 shipping tons of spare parts for military

mechanical transport have been shipped to Ireland.

Small outstanding demands exist for certain makes, which there is difficulty in

obtaining in sufficient quantities from the manufacturers. Deliveries are already

improving and all outstanding’s will be satisfied by the end of this month.

C-PERSONNEL.

5. One of the greatest difficulties in Ireland has been driver and more particularly

artificer personnel.

(a.) Drivers.—In January, 1920, the Army was seriously short of mechanical

transport drivers.

The deficiency was due to demobilization and dearth of recruits owing to the high

rates earned in civilian life.

Some idea of the difficulties will be realized from the following figures.

Since January, 1920, various theatres have absorbed 3,448 newly enlisted drivers,

of which Ireland has had 1,097. Since March, 1920, 9,449 experienced drivers, whose

time had expired, have been demobilized.

As regards Ireland the problem is being met—

(i.) By increasing our training facilities for output of drivers,

(ii.) By the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Ireland, enlisting ex-soldiers as

drivers on 6 months' engagements.

(6.) Artificers.—The shortage of artificers in the Army in January, 1920, was

even greater than the shortage of drivers.

This shortage was due partly to the necessity for demobilizing time-expired

personnel—2,252 artificers have been demobilized since March, 1920—and partly to

Army rates for artificers being so far below civilian rates that recruiting has been almost

at a standstill.

At the same time, 400 artificers have been sent to various theatres, of which 116

have gone to Ireland.

The shortage of military artificers in Ireland is being made good by the employ

ment of civilian artificers, engaged in England, to the number of 415 (at rates which

are approximately double Army rates). Of this number some 180 have already reached

Ireland, while the balance will be despatched by,17th December, 1920. All these

artificers pass a test before being sent.

D.—PEOTECTION FOR TROOPS.

6. (a.) Steel plates for lorries.—160 sets were asked for by Ireland on the

18th August, 1920.

Forty sets have been adapted in Woolwich Arsenal and despatched, and the remaining

120 sets are being sent at the rate of 30 a week and will be completed by the

8 th January.

(&.) Protective material proof against revolver bullets for lorries and cars.—

The War Office suggested to Ireland the provision of protective material for troops

and the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in Ireland agreed with this proposal.

66 sets for lorry bodies, 121 sets for lorry canopies, and 20 protective cushions for cars

have already been despatched to Ireland. 30 sets a week each for lorry bodies and lorry

canopies respectively are being sent, up to a total supply of 500 complete sets and

100 car cushions.

The above supply depends upon manufacturers keeping their promises as to

delivery.

GENERAL.

7. It must be remembered that the coal strike and industrial disturbance consequent

upon the strike has interfered with manufacture, and that during the last six months

the requirements in other theatres, and particularly in Mesopotamia, have had to

be met.

[Guest vintary]

A couple of Dublin 1920s tank photos just been posted on this site, one of which I have not seen before

( Image 1 post 15 )

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056712439

[gaelgoir]

I found this section in a witness statement to the Bureau of military history in Ireland, it describes a visit by an officer to Dublin corporation engineering office about deployment of tanks in Dublin during the Conscription crisis of 1917.

" a British military officer, a major i think asked to see the engineer in charge of the city streets He was shown into O'Connor's office (Rory O'Connor executed for his part in the occupation of the Four courts during the civil war and an active Republican" he wished to discussa matter of the greatest confidence. ............H esaid there would eb extensive street fighting in Dublin if conscription were enforced and that they would mainly use tanks some of them of aheavy type in such fighting. He wanted O'Connor to give him a list of streets which would be unsafe for the heaviest tanks , on account of sewers and other underground works. O'Connor told him there were many such streets ......it would help to know teh weights and load distribution......general discussion on street fighting '..... there was aseconsd meeting a week later."

[gaelgoir]

_{8 May 1920 Newspaper records that 37,000 troops and 40 Tanks are in Ireland but four tanks are notified tot eh disposal board for disposal}

[James Blonde]

With regards the picture: "Rory Boy" a cropped version of this appears in the book:-

"Irish Army Vehicles" by Karl Martin, (ISBN 0-9543413-0-9)

with the caption:-

Below: Rolls-Royce armoured car "Custom House" beside a Leyland lorry in Henery St. on the 5th of July 1922, the day after the heavy fighting in O'Connell Street. Nelson's Pillar is in the background. The puppet, "Rory Boy", above the .303 Vickers machine gun (MG) has a noose around its neck and represents Rory O'Connor, a leader of the Irregulars who was later executed in retaliation for the murder of Sean Hales T.D. outside of Leinster House in December. (Photo: Courtesy of the National Library of Ireland. National Library of Ireland Hogan/Lennon Collection no. B70.)

[mike papa]

On 30/06/2009 at 22:37, Sidearm said:

Jo

I'm going to disagree with Delta by suggesting that the tanks sent in late 1917 weren't there to raise funds but were also involved in the Troubles. The deployment of tanks to Ireland in October 1917 involved four tanks of Special Service Company, N Battalion. Two tanks were sent to the south of which one was in Cork and one in Limerick. The Tank Museum archives at Bovington, Dorset hold in their N/14th Battalion Personal Papers box a manuscript written by Capt D.B. Gilmour entitled "1914 - 1919 In Two Grouses: East and West". The east bit refers to his time in Cork, the west his time on the Western Front in 1918. HMT (His Majesty's Tank) Scotch and Soda was in Limerick and HMT Whiskey and Soda in Cork. I have no information on the two tanks stationed in the north - if anyone can help with that mystery.

The later deployment was by 17th (Armoured Car) Battalion, which operated armoured cars (A Company), Medium A tanks (B Company) and Heavy tanks, at least one a being a Mark V* (C Company).

Hope that helps.

Gwyn

Hi Jo,

Would you have a source for this please. Hoping to use it in my disertation if I can get a source please.

Kind Regards

Stephen

[mike papa]

On 17/01/2012 at 19:30, mgbarrett1 said:

Hi all just taught i would add this i came across it today might be of some reference.

"In April 1919 the Irish Command was reinforced with five infantry Battalions and FOUR TANKS"

REF: Report of G.O.C.-in-C Ireland,in report of Ld.lt.,15 May 1919 G.T.7277 CAB.2479.

Also Apart from the 5th Armoured Car Company in Dublin, there were no tank corps personnel(in Dublin there were a handful of MK V tanks)

REF :GHQ. Ireland,record,i.32.

Regards Martin

Hi Martin,

I was wondering would you have a copy of same report where is available,

Would appreciate your help with this

Stephen

[BullerTurner]

W

On 02/07/2009 at 23:06, bob lembke said:

This evokes great imagery. You send armor out on display to promote enthusiasm and raise (I am assuming) war bond-type funds, but between rallies you crash down the citizen's houses about their ears in reprisals! Doesn't sound like a sound policy, it might rile up the citizenry. Were they already annoyed?

Bob Lembke

To use British understatement...oh just a tad.

[Sidearm]

On 16/05/2020 at 13:04, mike papa said:

Hi Jo,

Would you have a source for this please. Hoping to use it in my disertation if I can get a source please.

Kind Regards

Stephen

 

Stephen

Not sure why your post is addressed to Jo as the information you quote comes from me. The source is given in the text you quote.

Gwyn 

[mike papa]

2 hours ago, Sidearm said:

 

Stephen

Not sure why your post is addressed to Jo as the information you quote comes from me. The source is given in the text you quote.

Gwyn 

Hi Gwyn

Sorry for annoying you but source where is it is that the national archives kew

[TullochArd]

Fascinating thread. 

 

If the following is to be believed (the caveat being I have not actually seen the film) it would appear that tanks were on "manoeuvres near Dublin" in 1917 (Source: “Filming the Tanks in Dublin.” Irish Limelight Dec. 1917: p.18.)

 

"As 1917 drew to a close, the other main Irish film production company of the period, the General Film Supply (GFS), was idealizing the new technologies of war. The GFS took out a large ad on the cover of the Limelight’s December issues, offering Christmas greetings and publicizing the various aspects of its business, particularly its Irish Events newsreel and the Irish-themed fiction films it had for hire. The most striking feature of the ad is a photograph of a tank leading soldiers over an embankment. The text under the photo reads: “Irish enterprise in producing a wonderful film of the tanks in Dublin is now having its reward by the unstinted praise bestowed on Irish Events.” An interview with GFS cameraman J. Gordon Lewis reveals that the company were releasing their film of the tanks that was on manoeuvres near Dublin in instalments over four weeks. “I was agreeably surprised at the wonderful Tanks,” he enthuses...…."

 

Source (and photo of the ad mentioned above): https://earlyirishcinema.com/category/films/topicals/tanks-in-dublin-ireland-gfs-1917/

 

 

Edited 7 June , 2020 by TullochArd

[Sidearm]

On 06/06/2020 at 18:01, mike papa said:

Hi Gwyn

Sorry for annoying you but source where is it is that the national archives kew

No. Please read my post slowly. The document can be found in the archives at The Tank Museum, Bovington, as stated.

Gwyn