Tank Corps - Ireland

[cathal1972]

Fair point. By "at peace" I meant no military conflict as was seen in the War of Independence, but in terms of civil unrest, clearly things were disordered.Maybe they were there as a show of strength, as others have said.

Cheers,

Cathal.

[Sidearm]

Gwyn please read my post properly - I was siding with you! not objecting

Phew! Thanks for that.

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

Gwyn, perhaps Capt Gilmour's memoirs can shed some light, if you have access to them? In particular I would be interested as to where in Cork exactly he was stationed.

Regards,

Cathal

No, I'm afraid I don't have access to them, at least not without visiting Bovington. The tank in Cork (only one in 1917) was stationed at Victoria Barracks.

Having had cause to check previous posts I note that although Gilmour states October 1917, the battalion history says the Special Service Company for service in Ireland was formed on 2 November 1917.

Gwyn

[val brown]

if i was a british commender in 1917 sending tanks to ireland would probably have been a good idea giving the actions of the irish citizen army in 1916 ( occupy & hold key position ) and having a very powerfull modern and intimidating weapon such as the tank and giving that the rebels had "at the time" very little support or what appeared to be very little support..

if i was a pro british rule irish man these tanks would have been great for my morale and sence of security..if i was a anti british rule irish man who at the time had not got modern weapons maybe a shotgun or the odd rifle if anything at all the sight of one of these tanks rumming down the road would have made me think..

as time went on and gorilla fighting more so than occupy & hold tactics became the norm if i was a ira leader planing an ambush or just going about my day to day business of getting the british out i think an 8 man bicycle team would probably had gave me more worry than a tank would have.....

[andiS]

Going back to the 'house demolition' photo...

I'm sure I read somewhere that the unditching beam rails were fitted in the field rather than at the factory - this tank from the 20s clearly has them. Does that mean that they were a factory fit or that this tank had seen previous service in France or Flanders?

andy

[centurion]

Unditching rails were made in the factory and shipped with the tank. They were fitted in France. The rails could cause problems with the loading gauge on some of the older parts of the British network but the French system was much more generous. Some tanks used for training were fitted with rails in Britain (there is photographic evidence of this) and ended up as presentation tanks. They would probably have been sent to sites accessible by lines that had been originally broad gauge but since converted to standard. These had (and still do) much more generous clearance with bridges, cuttings and tunnels. The tank in the photo appears to still have its recognition stripes which would strongly suggest previous service in France

[andiS]

Unditching rails were made in the factory and shipped with the tank. They were fitted in France. The rails could cause problems with the loading gauge on some of the older parts of the British network but the French system was much more generous. Some tanks used for training were fitted with rails in Britain (there is photographic evidence of this) and ended up as presentation tanks. They would probably have been sent to sites accessible by lines that had been originally broad gauge but since converted to standard. These had (and still do) much more generous clearance with bridges, cuttings and tunnels. The tank in the photo appears to still have its recognition stripes which would strongly suggest previous service in France

Thanks for clarifying that

[Sidearm]

Centurion is right that unditching rails on Mark IVs were fitted in France, rather than at the time of manufacture. However I have read that the same isn't true of Mark Vs. I don't have the photo of the house demolition to hand but I think this was a Mark V. (It is off the subject of this thread, but some Mark IVs used as presentation tanks that have unditching rails really did see service in France. Close analysis of the serial numbers proves this.)

Gwyn

[centurion]

The unditching rails on the Mk V were even more of a problem than on the Mk IV (they stuck out further to the side because of the commanders cupola and the need to clear the side hatches in it). The Mk V had a temporary exhaust arrangement fitted to allow it to be driven before the rail brackets were fitted (normally the pipe went through the bracket on the port side of the cupola) so that it could be delivered. There are photos showing this, all the photos I have found of Mk Vs loaded and en route to France are minus rails and the brackets.

There isn't enough tank showing in the photo to tell if it is a Mk IV or V

[rob elliott]

Just an observation, but if the tanks were for peace keeping duties in 1917 why send two North, where security was not an issue.

Seems to be a waste of men/machines. And what good are 5mph tanks in an urban environment,basically as Val says?

I tend to side with Innishowen and Cathal, in 1917, even with the 'conscription crisis' ??? there was not much trouble except for some south western areas. The formation of a unit in November 17 may be something to do with Ashe though.

It would seem more logical that either the government decided to have at least the back-up of tanks in Ireland in case of trouble or it was for some sort recruiting purpose, even if there is no record of it, again [recruiting] a reason for sendind two to the North.

You would have thought they would have at least said they were for recruiting though [keep the Americans quiet].

And as far as the recruiting went, it actually rose in 1918, so the theory about a disturbed land doesn't quite hold up.

Regarding the photo of the tank in Limerick with the barbed wire, there is possibly a good reason for this.

In January 1919, senior Limerick IRA man Robert Byrne was arrested for unlawful possesion of a firearm and sentenced to 12 months hard labour.

He went on hunger strike and was moved to the Union Hospital in March/April. Possibly fearing a re-occurance of the trouble following Thomas Ashes death in 1917 the government may have positioned the tank in readiness.

As it turned out on the 6th April a rescue attempt was made by the IRA at the hospital and a Policeman killed with another crippled.

In the escape Byrne was shot and died of his wounds, being found in a cottage some miles away.

Unfortunately Irish Policemen getting killed was not an unusual occurance, hence their being armed!

The photo of the tank destroying the building at Dillon's Cross was following the ambush of Auxillaries by the IRA in which one of them was killed. As a result of this ambush a few hours late Cork City was burned.

As more people were killed in Belfast in 1920-21 than anywhere else why not use whippet tanks there when they may have been a little useful to break up riots?

I have never seen any reference by republicans to the use of tanks against them, anytime, they would have wiped the floor with the government, propaganda wise, if they had used them against the public following the PR disaster of the Easter Rising, so it seems ilogical to use them in 1917 as a peace keeping tool.

Could it be that the 'tanks' in 1917 were actually armoured cars, which would be more logical and we know they were used later.

As stated the tank at Dillons Cross appears to have had overseas service and as the photo outside the bank of ireland shows there were plenty of tanks around in 1919 which must have come over later.

BLee, genuine request, could you give some more details of where the 6 civillians were shot dead and 1000 arrested?

Rob

[centurion]

Tanks make good mobile block houses if you want to shut off part of a town - just park one across the relevant intersection. They were used in this way in Glasgow for example. Tanks do not appear to have been used much for recruiting, indeed the only instance I can find is the Tank tour in the US and Canada before the draft was introduced. Most touring was for fund raising. In America and Australia a Female tank was used (possibly being a little easier to transport) but throughout main land Britain Males were used as the sponson doors allowed access for the public to the tank inside.

[val brown]

plenty of armoured cars & armoured lorrys used all over ireland 1916 1923 first armoured cars used in april 1916 in dublin lots of photos of armoured cars including rolls royce,austin,peerless,lancia,crossley,jeffery quad, plenty of reports of these armoured cars, but very little info on tanks ever been used in action apart from a show of force at strikes/protest and inforcing marshal law and as the photo shows knocking down the odd house...

[rob elliott]

Centurion,

Yes the block house is the most useful thing it could be. Looks like what it was used for in the Limerick photo.

One of the postings said that a tank was kept at Victoria barracks Cork. Dillons Cross is about a mile away i think, as its from this barracks the Auxillaries had just left when ambushed.

So possibly the tank was used as it was so close and a suitable 'big stick'.

Val, yes loads of reports of the armoured cars being used, including the improvised tank in Dublin in 1916, Guiness lorry i think with a boiler on the back, but no 'real' tanks.

Rob

[BrendanLee]

Just an observation, but if the tanks were for peace keeping duties in 1917 why send two North, where security was not an issue.

Seems to be a waste of men/machines. And what good are 5mph tanks in an urban environment,basically as Val says?

I tend to side with Innishowen and Cathal, in 1917, even with the 'conscription crisis' ??? there was not much trouble except for some south western areas. The formation of a unit in November 17 may be something to do with Ashe though.

It would seem more logical that either the government decided to have at least the back-up of tanks in Ireland in case of trouble or it was for some sort recruiting purpose, even if there is no record of it, again [recruiting] a reason for sendind two to the North.

You would have thought they would have at least said they were for recruiting though [keep the Americans quiet].

And as far as the recruiting went, it actually rose in 1918, so the theory about a disturbed land doesn't quite hold up.

As more people were killed in Belfast in 1920-21 than anywhere else why not use whippet tanks there when they may have been a little useful to break up riots?

BLee, genuine request, could you give some more details of where the 6 civillians were shot dead and 1000 arrested?

Rob

The 6 deaths occurred at a protest around the time of the General Strike which was on the 23^rd of April 1918. I do not have access to my records at the moment so I can not look it up, I think they died at the protest in Roscommon, it was covered in the Irish Times so you should get full details from their site.

You are correct in saying recruitment rose in 1918 but this was only due to the very low figures in 1917. The recruitment figures were: 44,000 Irishmen enlisted in 1914, 45,000 followed in 1915, but this dropped to 19,000 in 1916 and 14,000 in 1917. The 1918 figure has been given as between 11,000 and 15,655, 9,845 of these between August and November 1918. Looking at the 1916 and 1917 figures it would appear that the Rising and its aftermath did have an affect on recruiting.

Far from being a waste of men and machines the tanks in the North served both a political and a security role. Unionists feared being forced into an independent Ireland and after the 1916 Rising felt that home security was being neglected.

Although there were no major attacks on the British Administration during 1917 several events during that year would have had both the British Government, the Northern Unionists and the security forces in Ireland very concerned. Sinn Fein had won 3 by-elections, In the House of Commons, J. P. Farrell Irish Nationalist MP, proposes that Ireland be excluded from the operation of the National Services Act, the release and return to Ireland of 1916 internees, Sinn Fein demand the bodies of the Easter Rising leaders so that they can be given a Christian burial and de Valera is elected leader of Sinn Fein. I think the by-election results and the election of de Valera would have caused the most concern as Sinn Fein were considered, by the British, to be the organizers of the 1916 Rising.

[rob elliott]

BLee,

had a google of the General strike and looked at a number of sites, incuding a couple of republican ones, there are no mentions of deaths on any of them. If you could look it up would be interested.

Don't think the North was too worried about the South during the war. Carson had already got the agreement for the two home rule parliments for Belfast and Dublin with the option for Belfast to opt out later, which is what they did.

A couple of tanks wouldn't make a lot of difference. Only time the Northern Government got worried is after the treaty when the British handed over the military hardware to Collins. The rest was just putting scare pressure on the Government to get a bigger defence budget, which they got for a number of years after.

As far as the elections went, in 1917, the IPP still seemed to be in control so there was no great panic and as there was no 'landslide' in 1918 as republicans continue to claim [they polled a minority of votes and got 'byes' in 25, i think it was, seats] the IPP still could have held their own with good leadership, Joe Devlin maybe, held the North ok.

Recruitment was down in all home countries and as the figure for Irishmen serving hasn't been fully established we can never be sure of the total. In 1916 England had the Deby scheme to bolster figures and give a more evn spread.

But in Ireland recruiting went up in 1918 contrary to what may have been expected.

Conscription was never going to get off the ground and was a reaction by the government to being put under pressure by other MP's and figures pro Unionist. By the time it would have got moving in May/June we had ridden the storm.

A lot of those involved in the 1916 rising after release went to the USA, led by Liam Mellows. Dev went there himself in 1919 [to hide from arrest and leave other to catch the flack?]. American Irish republicans didn't like or trust him.

The real shock of the 1918 elections is not why SF fared so well but why the IPP collapsed completely. Your only as good as your opposition! The IPP wouldn't have won a raffle holding all the tickets! Some pact they agreed!

The smaller whippet tanks couldn't have been too useful otherwise they would have been used a bit more in 20/21 in the big cities, but you think they would have tried them out, or did they?

Rob

[centurion]

BLee,

The smaller whippet tanks couldn't have been too useful otherwise they would have been used a bit more in 20/21 in the big cities, but you think they would have tried them out, or did they?

Not sure what you mean by smaller Whippet tanks - there were only two types of Whippet in the British forces - the Medium A and the Medium B neither 'small' and both were used in the post war years "to support the civil power" in a number of British cities. The big heavies (Mk Vs) would block key intersections and junctions and the faster mediums would patrol the streets. The general idea seems to have been to intervene before unrest became riots and uprisings rather than to suppress them once they had broken out. By and large it seems to have worked.

[BrendanLee]

I would consider 73 out of 105 seats a bit of a landslide. The numbers of Irishmen who were in the British Army is generally accepted to be 206,000

58,000 were already enlisted in the British Regular Army or Navy before the war broke out - 21,000 serving regular soldiers, 18,000 reservists, 12,000 in the Special Reserve, 5,000 naval ratings and 2,000 officers.

130,000 volunteers recruited from Ireland for the duration of the war. Of these 24,000 originated from the National Volunteers. 26,000 joined from the Ulster Volunteers.

80,000 of the new recruits had no experience in either of the paramilitary formations of the wartime recruits, 137,000 went to the British Army, 6,000 to the Royal Navy and 4,000 to the Royal Air Force.

I think the Tanks were in Ireland for several reasons, a show of strength, nothing like the latest big powerful machine to attract new recruits, would come in handy should the Shinners kick off again. I think the reason they were not used in the War of Independence was because they were not suitable to counter the kind of tactics used by the flying columns, what use is a 5MPH tank when you can cycle, with a good wind behind you, at 25 or 30MPH.

[west coast]

these are from the 'railway prtection section' , what their exact purpose was ??. i came across the pics in a website dealing with inchicore rail works where i worked as a lad. i know they are not tanks, just thought someone might be interested.

mike.

[centurion]

these are from the 'railway prtection section' , what their exact purpose was ??. i came across the pics in a website dealing with inchicore rail works where i worked as a lad. i know they are not tanks, just thought someone might be interested.

mike.

Exactly what is says on the can - they protect the railway (from sabotage, ambush etc etc) and patrol it in these vehicles. I think they also escorted trains as well. Boiler casings from Inchecore were also loop holed and mounted on the back of lorries to provide improvised armoured vehicles

Back in the late 70s as a consultant I found my self tasked to create a 10 year IT strategy for CIE and hot footed to Inchicore to see what systems they might need - the first response from the Chief Engineer was "Doesn't matter so long as they're better than the ones British Rail have". His second response was "Just give me everything and I'll just not use the ones that don't suit me". I remember he spent some time bemoaning the fact that they didn't design and build their own locomotives.

[Peter Mc]

I can't find any reference to tanks in Ireland in the period directly covered by the Great War, other than those more commonly referred to here as armoured cars. But certainly by 1920 they were present. Just a few references of interest:

"Fighting for Dublin" William Sheehan 2007; p34 - "In August (1920) a number of old and various pattern tanks became available for disposal, and permission was given to hand them over to the Infantry........One section of four Mark V Star tanks were available throughout 1920 and 1921. They were manned by Tank Corps personnel. Although never brought into action in Dublin they would have been invaluable if required, their 6-pdr armament affording an excellent protected and mobile artillery for warfare of this kind. On several occasions tanks were used in support to Infantry and armoured cars. The usual gate of walled barracks is too narrow for a tank to pass without the sponsons being taken in....The majority of bridges in and about Dublin will not carry heavy tanks."

"British Voices" William Sheehan 2005; p138 - (quoted from Lt Gen AE Percival) Tanks - These were too slow moving and noisy to be of much use in the very open warfare of the South of Ireland. They might, perhaps, be useful in large cities for clearing streets, or taking on rebel strongholds, such as the Four Courts in Dublin."

I was very intrigued by the claim that:

in one protest in 1918 6 civilians were shot dead by the British Army with over 1000 people arrested

I've scoured the Times (English and Irish) and can find nothing - it must have been a dramatic event at the time and during the Great War period especially - can the poster provide the exact reference for this please?

Incidentally, tanks were deployed on the streets of Liverpool in 1919 during the Police Strike there.

[centurion]

One thing that a heavy tank would be useful for is removing barricades

[west coast]

centurion,

the picture on the left is at inchicore, the other is obvisouly on the main line some where. the left picture is from 1916 the other looks like free state troops later on. i spent some years there in the early sixties, they had a huge 'graveyard' of locos and rolling stock [ including the old state coach] in which i used to ramble round for ages, great history.

mike.

[Sidearm]

I have seen a photo of a heavy tank being used to break down the door of a house in Ireland. The method was to wedge a timber baulk (an unditching beam?) between the front hull of the tank and the door, and for the tank simply to ease forward, thus pushing in the door. So a tank might be of more use than previous posts give credit for.

Gwyn

[val brown]

the armoured cars on rails were all converted armoured lancias over 50 of these conversion were carried out in 1922/23 by the irish national army only two had turrets like the left photo in post #43 the rest were like the right photo in post #43....

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=19719

[val brown]

RE,, limerick tank photo

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=77302