Tank Corps - Ireland

[cr27ete]

My great uncle was called up in 1917 and after training transfered to the Tank Corps. He served in Ireland towards the end of the war and up to his discharge in 1920 (Sgt's mess cook some of the time). What were the Tank Corps doing in Ireland at the time?

Thanks

[centurion]

What would today be called internal security duties. ie The Troubles

[kildaremark]

... and knocking down house!

[cr27ete]

Many thanks for the replies, I hadn't realised the Tank Corps had been involved but you can't argue with the photo. I suppose being in the Sergeant's Mess my gt uncle was not directly involved but he does not appear to have talked in the family about it

[joflint]

My Grt Uncle also served with the Tanks in Ireland 1917-1920. Is there anywhere i can find out more about this? Have been to various Tank sites but i can't find anything of use!

[delta]

Hi Jo - a few tanks were sent to raise war funds in late 1917 but there deployment on peace-keeping oepratiosn did not occur until after the war ended. 17th Bn were deployed, initially with armoured cars, and then heavy armour was sent across in early 1919.

There's thread on the issue somewhere on the Forum - will try and find it

[joflint]

Hi Jo - a few tanks were sent to raise war funds in late 1917 but there deployment on peace-keeping oepratiosn did not occur until after the war ended. 17th Bn were deployed, initially with armoured cars, and then heavy armour was sent across in early 1919.

There's thread on the issue somewhere on the Forum - will try and find it

Thanks Delta. That would be great.

[Sidearm]

Jo

I'm going to disagree with Delta by suggesting that the tanks sent in late 1917 weren't there to raise funds but were also involved in the Troubles. The deployment of tanks to Ireland in October 1917 involved four tanks of Special Service Company, N Battalion. Two tanks were sent to the south of which one was in Cork and one in Limerick. The Tank Museum archives at Bovington, Dorset hold in their N/14th Battalion Personal Papers box a manuscript written by Capt D.B. Gilmour entitled "1914 - 1919 In Two Grouses: East and West". The east bit refers to his time in Cork, the west his time on the Western Front in 1918. HMT (His Majesty's Tank) Scotch and Soda was in Limerick and HMT Whiskey and Soda in Cork. I have no information on the two tanks stationed in the north - if anyone can help with that mystery.

The later deployment was by 17th (Armoured Car) Battalion, which operated armoured cars (A Company), Medium A tanks (B Company) and Heavy tanks, at least one a being a Mark V* (C Company).

Hope that helps.

Gwyn

[delta]

Gwyn - I didn't knwow about N Bn - did it include Leonard Bates (origianlly of C Company).

He died of injuries received during railway accident 10th Nov ‘17. Initial announcement of his death in the Irish Independent 12 Nov ‘17 states "As a result of having been crushed between two wagons in the railway siding at Remount Depot, Ballsbridge, Capt Bates died six hrs after admission to the City of Dublin Hosp". London Times of 21 Nov ‘17 reports: "BATES - Accidentally killed Capt LJ Bates MC Tank Corps, seriously injured while detraining and died from injuries on 10th November ‘17, age 34. Buried with full military honours at Dublin on the 14th Inst”. He is buried at CE officers 8 in Grangegorman military cemetery in Dublin

Stephen

[Sidearm]

I would have said it was a certainty.

N Battalion was renamed 14th Battalion and deployed to France in 1918.

Gwyn

[bob lembke]

Jo

I'm going to disagree with Delta by suggesting that the tanks sent in late 1917 weren't there to raise funds but were also involved in the Troubles. The deployment of tanks to Ireland in October 1917 involved four tanks of Special Service Company, N Battalion. Two tanks were sent to the south of which one was in Cork and one in Limerick. The Tank Museum archives at Bovington, Dorset hold in their N/14th Battalion Personal Papers box a manuscript written by Capt D.B. Gilmour entitled "1914 - 1919 In Two Grouses: East and West". The east bit refers to his time in Cork, the west his time on the Western Front in 1918. HMT (His Majesty's Tank) Scotch and Soda was in Limerick and HMT Whiskey and Soda in Cork. I have no information on the two tanks stationed in the north - if anyone can help with that mystery.

Gwyn

This evokes great imagery. You send armor out on display to promote enthusiasm and raise (I am assuming) war bond-type funds, but between rallies you crash down the citizen's houses about their ears in reprisals! Doesn't sound like a sound policy, it might rile up the citizenry. Were they already annoyed?

Bob Lembke

[delta]

Thanks Gwyn

[Sidearm]

Bob

Oh yes - they were annoyed! Do a Google search for the Easter Rising of 1916!

The 1917 tank deployment to Ireland was not a fund raising mission. It was what today would be called a peace-keeping operation and a very heavy handed one at that.

Gwyn

[delta]

I think the tank at Limerick was commanded by Capt Bill Sampson MC - he had commanded D13 Delilah during the first action at High Wood on 15 Sep 1916

Stephen

[val brown]

re tanks in ireland,,,dublin 17,5,1921

[val brown]

beach photo is dated cork 1,1,1920 the other is dated limerick (scotch & soda) 1,4,1919

[centurion]

Welcome aboard

That's a nice shot of the Whippet (Medium A). I've a larger version of the Shannon Bridge photo but do you have a larger shot of the Mk V*s on the beach? -it would be of interest.

[val brown]

seem to be having probs uploading a good size photo here is the ref for that beach photo google gettyimages 82143768

[inishowen]

Re post 13 above:

Gwyn - the notion that anyone was sent to Ireland on 'peacekeeping' in 1917 is just not in accordance with the facts.

The first shots in the War of Independence were not fired until early 1919.

In 1917 Tanks would have been in Ireland for the exact same reason as they would be in England, Scotland, or Wales.

[centurion]

Re post 13 above:

Gwyn - the notion that anyone was sent to Ireland on 'peacekeeping' in 1917 is just not in accordance with the facts.

The first shots in the War of Independence were not fired until early 1919.

In 1917 Tanks would have been in Ireland for the exact same reason as they would be in England, Scotland, or Wales.

There is no record of any tank being used for fund raising in Ireland. The touring tanks went to England, Wales and Scotland but not to Ireland so this statement is incorrect. There is no evidence whatsoever that tanks were employed anywhere else outside of France and Palestine in 1917 for defensive or security duties!

[Sidearm]

The photo of the Medium A is familiar. It comes, as I recall, from the National Library of Ireland. The photo of the two Mark Vs in Cork is new to me and I would love to see a better image. Both of these photos are of the later deployment of tanks during the War of Independence.

Despite Inishowen and Centurion's objections I stand by my assertion that tanks were sent to Ireland in 1917 for peacekeeping or security reasons. As I state above, in the 14th Battalion Tank Corps Personal Papers box in The Tank Museum Archives at Bovington is a memoir by Captain D. B. Gilmour called "1914 - 1919 In Two Grouses - East and West". This recounts his war experience including service with the Special Service Company of N Battalion Tank Corps. This comprised four tanks and was sent to Ireland in October 1917. One of these was the Mark IV "HMT Scotch and Soda" seen in the photo in post 16 above. The same scene was filmed by Pathe so to get a closer look go to their website. Now, if you were going to use a tank to raise funds, would you surround it by barricades and barbed wire? I wouldn't - and I believe this shows the tank in peacekeeping mode.

Gwyn

[cathal1972]

Inishowen is correct-peace keeping was not required in Ireland in 1917 as Ireland was at peace at that time. That was certainly not the case in 1919-1921, the dates associated with the photos posted.

Gwyn, perhaps Capt Gilmour's memoirs can shed some light, if you have access to them? In particular I would be interested as to where in Cork exactly he was stationed.

Regards,

Cathal

[centurion]

The photo of the Medium A is familiar. It comes, as I recall, from the National Library of Ireland. The photo of the two Mark Vs in Cork is new to me and I would love to see a better image. Both of these photos are of the later deployment of tanks during the War of Independence.

Despite Inishowen and Centurion's objections I stand by my assertion that tanks were sent to Ireland in 1917 for peacekeeping or security reasons. As I state above, in the 14th Battalion Tank Corps Personal Papers box in The Tank Museum Archives at Bovington is a memoir by Captain D. B. Gilmour called "1914 - 1919 In Two Grouses - East and West". This recounts his war experience including service with the Special Service Company of N Battalion Tank Corps. This comprised four tanks and was sent to Ireland in October 1917. One of these was the Mark IV "HMT Scotch and Soda" seen in the photo in post 16 above. The same scene was filmed by Pathe so to get a closer look go to their website. Now, if you were going to use a tank to raise funds, would you surround it by barricades and barbed wire? I wouldn't - and I believe this shows the tank in peacekeeping mode.

Gwyn

Gwyn please read my post properly - I was siding with you! not objecting

[cathal1972]

Just a thought-were they there to help with recruiting? No conscription in Ireland.

[BrendanLee]

I think Ireland was far from being at peace in 1917, only eight months after the 1916 Rising, thousands interned and an intense Police and Military build up I think the tanks were a show of strength. After the Rising Police and Military activities increased, raids, arrests of suspected Rebels, increased check points turned the British Army into an Army of oppressive occupation.

Although there was no coordinated campaign against the British there were several events which concerned the British administration and caused them to maintain a highly visible force, the death of Thomas Ashe and subsequent funereal, an intense anti-conscription campaign, in one protest in 1918 6 civilians were shot dead by the British Army with over 1000 people arrested, Armistice Day 1918 was marked by severe rioting in Dublin with over 100 British Soldiers injured and raids for arms on RIC Barracks resulting in the death of at least one Policeman.