12th Bat Highland Light Infantry May 1916?

[cockney tone]

Ladies & Gents,

Pal's,

i am trying to find out some info on a friends relation who is buried at Bethune Town Cemetery who died on 17th May 1916.

He is Corporal Aitken Dott SIMPSON, service number 8830. He was attached to the 12th Bat HLI. I am assuming (I know you should not assume!) that he perhaps died of wounds at the 33rd Clearing Station nearby.

Would anybody know of the whereabouts of the 12th Bat HLI around this period please? or any information (SDGW?) on the Gentleman himself would be gratefully recieved, thank you.

Regards,

Scottie.

[jay dubaya]

Hi Scottie,

from SDGW, born Edinburgh, enlisted Leith, Midlothian. DoW 17/05/16

cheers, Jon

[cockney tone]

Jon,

thank you very much for that, that fits with what I have been told so far.

Regards and best wishes,

Scottie.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Scottie,

The 12th were in the area of the Loos/Hulluch. There was tremendous mining activity in the area, along with a German assualt in the Divisional area to capture 'The Kink' - 11th May 1916. The preliminary bombardment and assault caused numerous casualties. Whilst the bombardment was going on, the 46th Bde was relieving the 44th Bde in the Quarries Sector. This is the main activity at Divisional and Brigade level. I do not have the 12th diary, so I am unable to tell you the circumstances that the 12th HLI found themselves in.

Good luck with your research.

Aye

Tom McC

[cockney tone]

Tom,

this is excellent info, thank you very much for sharing it with me.

I am aware that the 15th & 16th HLI had 'informal' names do you know by any chance if the 12th had one as well please?

From a book on the Somme i have it shows in July 1916 that the 12th HLI were in the 46th brigade 15th Division, from what you have posted about the '46th' is it safe to assume this was the case in May 1916?

Sorry about the further qeustions,

regards and best wishes,

Scottie.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Scottie,

The 12th, unlike the 15th, 16th, and, 17th, was not a 'Pals' battalion. Albeit the soldiers, in the main, were on the same type of engagement with the army, they were raised for war service, under different circumstances and as such had this in their title (Service). The 12th were in K2, formed before the 'Pals' concept grew legs and took men from all over the HLI's recruiting area. It may have had an unofficial sobriquet, but this I do not know. It is probably worth looking in the Hamilton or Glasgow press to see if they had a nickname. The 4th (City of Dundee) Bn, The Black Watch, TF, were always referred to as 'Dundee's Ain', possibly this may have occurred with the 12th HLI.

As you are probably aware, the Pals were recruited from workplaces, hence the names of the 15th, 16th, 17th HLI.

You can see from my signature, my Great Grandfather was killed whilst serving in the 12th HLI. Initially, he was too old to serve in the army, but was recruited on the basis of being an ex-regular, and volunteer/TF NCO.

Hope this is of use

Aye

Tom McC

[cockney tone]

Tom,

yes definatly of some use to me, thank you for adding to the post. I have a copy of the Battleground Europe book for the area and have just read of the HLI's involvement in 1915. My Grandad had a short spell in this area in 1917 and a return visit to the area is overdue on my part.

Regards and thanks again,

Cheers,

Scottie.

[Adam Harland]

Scottie,

as described above, the 12th HLI had no nickname. It was in 46th Brigade from formation until transfer to 35th division in early 1918

It took a bit of a hammering at Loos ( along with the rest of the division, so in May 1916 was still being built up to full strength. The War diary records drafts of over 200 men arriving in May.

On 11th May 12 HLI were in the brigade reserve. That evening a German assault took the Kink about 7pm amd the fighting had died down by 2am. The war diary states ' The Bttn had few ( possibly reads four) casualties.

There are no other casualties reported in this period, although fairly regular reference to rifle grenade activity. The mines ( camouflets) blown are not reported as causing casualties.

11th May was the first day back in the line. Of some interest was that on 4th May the Bttn was inspected by the Lords Provost of Edinburgh and Glasgow ( and GOC 15th Div). You may well fine a picture of this in the Glasgow and Edinburgh press of that time.

Regards

Adam

[cockney tone]

Adam,

you must be a mind reader!

I had seen your post on the Unit Diaries section and left you an enquiry!

Thank you very much for the info you have posted, this will be of great interest to my friend who only really knew of his relatives grave but now has a bit more to go on.

Thanks again,

Regards,

Scottie.

[high wood]

No. 3 platoon, A. Company, 12th H.L.I. taken in England. I have a few more 12th Battalion photographs, if you are interested I can post them.

[Adam Harland]

Yes please re any other posts.

The officers of A Coy, as Loos were Capts Hanley KIA, Capt Young WIA, 2Lt Jonas and Lucas WIA. Command of the Coy passed to Lt Hawley. This officer looks like a 2Lt, but which one still eludes me.

Adam

[high wood]

Some pictures of the 12th Btn Highland Light Infantry being inspected by General W. Pitcain Campbell. C.B. at Romsey on the 27th February 1915. All photographs by the Test Valley Studio, Romsey.

[high wood]

More

[high wood]

Enlargement of the 3rd Platoon, A Coy, Officer's picture. Any help with identification would be welcomed.

[shellyj]

I have been following this thread with interest as I am researching 22261 Pte Robert Jessiman 12 HLI (gt gt uncle). He was KIA 23 May 1916 and is burried at Bois Carre cemetry.

Having read the war diary for May 1916 there is no direct entry of casualties on the 23rd. Reviewing the diary for the dates I believe it was written part in retrospect as the 19th May refers to "Patrol of 8 OR under Lt Todd went behind the craters. They were seen and fired on by a MG and with bombs. Lt Todd was wounded but brought in good information. Four men were missing 1 killed and 3 wounded. Two men turned up on the morning of the 21st with good information."

My question to you experts - is it possible for Robert to have been one of the two soldiers missing and could his body have been found on the 23 May therefore given that as date of death. In the cemetry two HLI soldiers are burried together both showing having died on 23rd May (Robert being one and Pte Kelly being the other).

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Shellyj

[high wood]

12th battalion HLI at Romsey 1915.

[Adam Harland]

Shelly,

it is not possible to give an exact answer to your question, but I think that the answer is no. The reason is as follows;

You are right in noting that the war diary generally says 'quiet day' for the period from 19/5/16 to 23/5/16. From the WD it seems that one OR and Capt Leitch were the only fatalities. From Soldiers Died the fatalities were 12 ORs.

There were none recorded for 19/5. From this I assume that the patrol under Lt Todd took place on the night of 19/20.

There are 5 fatalities recorded for 20/5. The patrol is described as being 8 ORs, with 1 KIA, 3 woundeed, and 4 missing ( two of whom turn up latter)

On 20/5 there are recorded the deaths of 26525 Milne and L/Cpl 12462 Speirs. They are recorded on the Loos memorial, which means that their bodies were never identified and they remain missing. I believe these are the 2 missing who did not turn up

L/Cpl 22872 Duffy is recorded as KIA. He is buried at Loos British Cemetery. This included dead moved after the war from cemeteries ( possibly Corkscrew?) which were nearer the front. I think he is the one dead mentioned in the WD.

There are 4023 Paton and 203 Cummings who both died of wounds. They are buried at Bethune Town, which was the site of 33 Casualty Clearing Station until Dec 1917. The problem is that this just gives the day they died, not which day they were wounded. The CCS is not a frontline facility and they may have been there for several days, too seriously injured to move further, or they may have arrived seriously wounded that day.

This can be compared with Capt Leitch, who is mentioned as being killed by a rifle grenade on 20/5. He was a pre war teacher who did his training in 1905-8 so was probably mid to late 20s. He is buried at Sailly Labouse, which CWGC describe as 'used as rest billets and by Field Ambulances. The Field ambulance was the divisional medical service. so it looks as if Capt Leitch was wounded and died at the local FA, rather than live long enough to make it to the CCS. Equally, he was not buried locally with L/Cpl Duffy

on 21/5 four men are recorded as dying.

L/Cpls 6027 Warren and 5929 Hendrie are shown KIA. They are buried at Bois Carre Haisnes cemetery. This is described by CWGC as mainly used at this time by 16th Irish Division. The 12 HLI took over trenches from this division on 16/5. It was clearly local to where they were killed.

also on 21/5/16 17576 Steel and 18213 Casey are shown as DOW. They are buried at Bethune. Again the date of their wounds are not know, but they died at the CCS within 48 hours of the report of wounded on the patrol.

On 22/5/16 24824 Gaston is shown KIA, buried at Bois Carre as above.

On 23/5/16 18091 Kelly and your man are shown KIA, buried at Bois Carre

On 21/5/16 the 12 HLI are shown as going into Brigade Reserve and supplying working parties. They undertake a relief on the 23/5/16

I think it is possible to identify the KIA on the patrol as Duffy, and the two MIA as Milne and Speirs.

I do not think that Jessiman was killed on the patrol, and his body recovered later, as he is not buried at the same cemetery as Duffy, nor at one associated with an evacuated casualty such as Capt Leitch. He would appear to have died on a different part of the line.

Of course, he could have been one of the two missing who turned up again ( or even one of the wounded, but only slightly)

The 3 wounded mentioned for the patrol could include any of the DOW, or none of them. Generally those well enough to move from a CCS were moved, so only the very seriously injured would be expected not to have been removed to a base hospital. But, sadly, the very seriously injured could take several days, maybe a week, to die. Probably there is a link to the wounded on the patrol, but I cannot prove it.

The rest of the KIA represent the 'All quiet on the Western Front' syndrome..........The War diary says a quiet day, which it was as only a couple of ORs died ( and we have less idea of how many were wounded) each day.

As far as I can see Lt Todd survived the war. He had joined the Bttn on 10/10/15, four days after Capt Leith (6/10/15). There is a WD entry for 20/4/18 which shows Lt AL or AC Todd joining the bttn. I am not certain if this is the original 2Lt Todd........

I hope that was of some interest.

Regrads

Adam

High Wood, I like the photos, but what was it with the photographer which means he is putting the officers out of the centre of the pictures. I presume this must be platoon photos with their instructors taking the centre of the stage....

[Tom A McCluskey]

High Wood,

Brilliant ! Please post more, especially if you have group shots of the platoons. My great-grandfather was killed with this battalion on the 15th September 1915. It is good to see what the battalion looked like, plus I have no photograph of Cpl William Moreland, although my parents would more than likely be able to identify him compared to a photo they saw of him some years ago - its location is now unknown.

Much appreciated

Aye

Tom McC

[high wood]

Sadly, I do not have a picture of William Moreland to offer you. I do have one or two named individuals. This is Corporal, 125 James Wightman, 12th Btn, HLI who was killed in action on the 23rd October 1915, age 21. He was the son of Agnes Mary Wightman, of 6, St Michael Street, Dumfries, and the late Archibald W. D. Wightman. James Wightman disembarked in France on the 2nd October 1915, three weeks before his death.

[shellyj]

Adam

many thanks for your reply and for the information/thoughts you have given regarding Robert Jessiman, and I can follow your rationale completly. It has certainly helped in filling in the gaps in my own research! I hope to be able to add a few more details soon - I have still to identify his date of enlistment and perhaps even which Company he was serving/trench location in at the time of his death. But perhaps that is a step too far.........!! Having visited his grave and paid my respects I am keen to learn all I can about one of these many brave men.

High Wood

Keep those pictures coming! Really helps to give a feel of the times - and the possibility that my gt gt uncle is amongst them!

Again, many thanks to you both.

Shellyj

[shellyj]

Adam

many thanks for your reply and for the information/thoughts you have given regarding Robert Jessiman, and I can follow your rationale completly. It has certainly helped in filling in the gaps in my own research! I hope to be able to add a few more details soon - I have still to identify his date of enlistment and perhaps even which Company he was serving/trench location in at the time of his death. But perhaps that is a step too far.........!! Having visited his grave and paid my respects I am keen to learn all I can about one of these many brave men.

High Wood

Keep those pictures coming! Really helps to give a feel of the times - and the possibility that my gt gt uncle is amongst them!

Again, many thanks to you both.

Shellyj

[shellyj]

Adam

many thanks for your reply and for the information/thoughts you have given regarding Robert Jessiman, and I can follow your rationale completly. It has certainly helped in filling in the gaps in my own research! I hope to be able to add a few more details soon - I have still to identify his date of enlistment and perhaps even which Company he was serving/trench location in at the time of his death. But perhaps that is a step too far.........!! Having visited his grave and paid my respects I am keen to learn all I can about one of these many brave men.

High Wood

Keep those pictures coming! Really helps to give a feel of the times - and the possibility that my gt gt uncle is amongst them!

Again, many thanks to you both.

Shellyj

[high wood]

This photograph was taken in France and is addressed to Mrs McLean, 20 Barn Road, Stirling and is described as 12th (S) Btn HLI, No 3 platoon, A Coy. Someone at a later date has added, "Grandad McLean sergeant, extreme left"; I assume that this is a reference to his position in the photograph and not his politics. Grandad McLean can also be seen in the front row extreme left in the photograph in post 10.

[Adam Harland]

Highwood,

another cracking picture. I presume that the identification refers to Sgt McLean's position, not to the photo. This is not the same officer as above in post 10, and all those in the photo appear to be Sgts or above. There is a possibility that it is the A Coy commander and his sgts, together with the CSM and CQMS. If it is in France, and prior to Loos, then the officer would be Capt Hanley, but I have never seen a photograph of him.

Sad to think that if this is any early war photo, by 26th Sept 1915 most of them would be dead or wounded

Adam

[high wood]

I think that the photograph in my last post was taken after 1915. My understanding is that the battalion wore glengarrys at Loos. I am not sure exactly when the Tam O'Shanter was introduced but not before 1916 I think. I am sure that someone on the forum will know. I would love to know who Serjeant McLean was if anyone has access to Ancestry.

Simon.