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Dulmen POW Camp

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Tim Wright

Graeme.

Many thanks for your informative and very helpful reply.

Tim.

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junea

Good Morning

I have been researching my grandfather’s military history

I have followed this thread with interest as my grandfather was taken a POW on the 16/4/1917 at Bullencourt in front of Morchies

He was in the 11th Batt AIF I have several good photos that belong to his memorbilia that may show him in a POW camp. I have not been able to defiantly ID which or were these POW camps were. I wondered if members of the list would be interested in looking at these photos.

There are 3 photos which may have been taken in a POW camp One photo shows my grand father with some friend outside and written on the back is “some of the boys in our hut’ it show three soldiers and I think they are Australian There 2 photos other one shows my grandfather alone and the other is an unidentified soldier.

I also have photos which could be ID as taken in POW camp. Is it OK for me to post these photos I would really appreciate some help in ID the place (POW Camp) and who.

Best wishes June

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Doug Johnson

June,

Post away. If you have difficulty in reducing the size to fit then just ask.

It may not be possible to identify the camp, especially if they are photographs of groups or individuals as most of the camps look the same and they may be at a work camp, however there may be some clues.

Do you have his name and can you post it?

Doug

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Tim Wright

Hi Doug.

I am having difficulty posting a postcard from my grandfather in a POW camp on the forum.

I have managed to get the size down to 212kb by adjusting my camera, can you please explain to me how i can reduce the size to post on the forum?

Many thanks.

Tim.

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junea

Hello Doug,

Thank you

My grandfather’s name was Sgt Harry Percy Walker 3695 he was born in Urchfont Wiltshire UK but came to Western Australia with his father and siblings as a child

He enlists in 1915 in the 11th Batt AIF and was in the 12th reinforcement. And he

Left Fremantle in November 1915 on the Mongolia. The ship and contingent arrived in Egypt just before Christmas. I have another wonderful photo showing a group of soldiers who have just receive their Christmas billies or Christmas presents. I can ID 2 or 3 soldiers on the photo but not others.

The 11th Batt trained in Egypt and then went to France in 1916.granddad was wounded 3 times. The last time being in April 1817 and he was taken POW and spent the rest off the war in POW Camps. Quite a few of the photos have stamped on the back “Photograph A Unland, Hannover Rundestr, 6. I have seen a copy off one of the photos on the Australian War memorial Web Page.

I have counted the photos and there maybe as many as 10 photos taken in POW Camps

I tried to attach a copy of the photo which has written on the back “Some of the boys in our Hut” but have not been successful. It maybe due to the size of the photo.

I will visit a friend who is a whiz and get him to help me make the photos smaller and therefore able to go onto this web page

June

post-43423-1272528518.jpg

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Doug Johnson

Tim,

There is a section of the forum on using the technology which is sometimes helpful. However, if you have the image on your PC then right click on it and then put the cursor on "open with" and hopefully you will have "paint" available. If so open the image in paint then save a copy of the image as a different name before you change it otherwise you may accidently save your altered image on top of your better one. In paint go to "image" on the menu bar and then open "stretch/skew" and enter a percentage in both "stretch" boxes, 60% should see your image reduced enough for a posting. NB use JPEG files as they are smaller so if your image is not a JPEG then save it as one.

If you do not have paint then try another editing program to see it it has a similar function. NB if you are inserting images into a word file then it pays to make them smaller before you insert them to avoid your word file getting huge.

Doug

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Doug Johnson

June,

I see your Grandfather got around a bit; Dulmen, Soltau, Minden and Hameln. His last listed camp is Hameln and he was there from about October 1917 having been taken prisoner in April so I would assume that most of the photographs were taken there. That is supported by the fact that the photographs were taken by a Hannovarian photographer as Hameln is the camp closest to Hannover (in fact the closest of all the camps listed by Mrs P-H). The other camps are much further away apart from Minden but that one is on the far side of the Weser.

If you have the names of the others you have identified in the photographs we can check which camps they were in to see if there is a match. As a Sgt he would probably have stayed in the head camps rather than be moved out to a sub-camp so we are not looking for some obscure location. The horizontal boarding is also the same as at Hameln (and hundreds of other camps including Minden). If it had been vertical boarding then it may have introduced some doubt.

Are there any purple cachets on the back of the cards, even if unreadable?

Doug

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junea
June,

I see your Grandfather got around a bit; Dulmen, Soltau, Minden and Hameln. His last listed camp is Hameln and he was there from about October 1917 having been taken prisoner in April so I would assume that most of the photographs were taken there. That is supported by the fact that the photographs were taken by a Hannovarian photographer as Hameln is the camp closest to Hannover (in fact the closest of all the camps listed by Mrs P-H). The other camps are much further away apart from Minden but that one is on the far side of the Weser.

If you have the names of the others you have identified in the photographs we can check which camps they were in to see if there is a match. As a Sgt he would probably have stayed in the head camps rather than be moved out to a sub-camp so we are not looking for some obscure location. The horizontal boarding is also the same as at Hameln (and hundreds of other camps including Minden). If it had been vertical boarding then it may have introduced some doubt.

Are there any purple cachets on the back of the cards, even if unreadable?

Doug

Hello Doug,

I have looked carefully at the back off the photos and cannot see any purple cachets.

My grandfather is the soldier in the middle at the back, to his right and as we look to the left is Leslie James Wood 3457 from Buchan Victoria I have looked at his military record and cannot see that he was a POW but what I have just noted reading his (Wood) military history is that he returned to Australian on the same ship as my grandfather the Dunluce Castle.

There is anothe photo in which Les J Wood may appear and this might be off convalenting soldiers.

Written on the back off the photo is R Lloyd 14 Eglinton St Kew whic ID as George Roy Powell Lloyd 3316, who also came home on the Dunluce Castle. You can ID George Lloyd as he had an arm amputated and when you look closely at the photo it is can just be seen he is missing a arm.

I also have a copy of a newspaper or news letter published whilst on the trip home. There is also a small card which gives the menu for the lunch on Anzac Day 1919 which was held on board the Dunluce Castle

I have noted that they came by the "Czaritza" to Suez and then by the Dunluce Castle to Fremantle.

I think I have made a mistake about these photos being a POW Camp, please excused the error.

I would like to send on the photos that are stamped with A Unlands name

best wishes

June

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Doug Johnson

June,

I think you are correct that the image posted is not a PoW photograph as neither of the others named appear to have been PoWs. I normally ask to see an image of the back of the cards as they sometimes have clues on and PoW ones usually have the continental divided back on them similar to this;

post-7895-1272548796.jpg

Doug

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Tim Wright

Doug.

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Many thanks.

Tim.

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robins2

thanks Doug for the link to this thread, answered a few questions and interesting photos, I will attempt to post a short narrative of my wife's great uncle comments. with regards to Engers Camp, it was not a formal POW camp, it was a working camp 10 minute train journy from Colblenz. Post too big??He was captured at Hooge on 6 June 1916, was with 28th Canadain Inf. Bde. He states camp had population of 1000 to 2000 POW's, British, French,Russian, Belgian & Serbian. Interestingly he gives the following:"the weekly entertainment given by members of the camp in an improvised theatre erected by American YMCA afforded some distraction from the weary monotony of routine. The preformers were exempted from all working parties and thus were able to present well-prepared programmes for our amusement. The camp orchestra, consisting soley of prisoners, was a musical organization with a considerable reputation as English orchestras go in Germany.

He also mad e comments as to the brutal treatment of the POWs, of which he called them Heroes that were compelled

to sleep in open air for months with a single blanket or sheet to protect them

Saxon79,

According to "Prisoners of the Kaiser", the camp was disbanded and cleared and the land returned to it's former owner. Unfit for cultivation the land was planted with trees. There is only the small remains of a brick structure remaining visible on site. The cemetery would have been outside the camp and I have no idea how close it was. All the British dead (96) were re-buried in the 1920's in Cologne Southern Cemetery under the familiar CWGC headstones and I think the French also removed their's though I think to a communal grave. I have no idea as to whether there are still dead buried locally though I suspect there are.

Doug

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Doug Johnson

Bob,

The difficulty in recalled accounts is separating the facts and allocating them into their proper context as they are often all jumbled up.

Firstly a question, was he a private or was he a L/Cpl? His account has him down as the latter.

We know he was at Dulmen from 9th June until 2nd August 1916 and I suspect that is where the 2000 prisoners were, where the YMCA hut was and where the entertainment took place. Engers accommodation was part in a hotel and part in a theatre and there appear to have been about 100 prisoners there engaged on building a bridge across the Rhine. Engers was a working camp attached to Limburg so he would have officially transferred there though he never actually set foot in the camp itself, having gone to Engers directly from Dulmen. Although accommodated partly in a theatre, there would have been no entertainments there as they were all engaged in working on the bridge.

His later recollections may have been confused as the interviewer who took his statement said "What this witness has to say can, I think, be relied upon; he is a man of fair intelligence, but he finds some difficulty in expressing himself and, and his memory as to names and places is rather faulty" and that was only a month after he escaped!

Doug

PS his comments regarding the prisoners sleeping in the open relate to those forced to work behind the lines after capture. He himself did not go through that experience so he would have known of it either from seeing these prisoners come into Dulmen or from other prisoners.

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fritz

Another view of POW-camp Dülmen

Fritz

post-12337-1276167345.jpg

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robins2

Doug

his war records indicate as late as 5 Jan. 1918 he was still Pte.

on another form (Causualty Form Active Service) he is referred to as L/Cpl only entry on form is the date of the MM award being 6/2/20 Auth. LG 31759.d.27.1.20 at12

discharged 25 Apr, 1918 still listed as Pte. all apy recorde indicate rank as Pte.

it would appear that the promotion came with the MM???

Bob,

The difficulty in recalled accounts is separating the facts and allocating them into their proper context as they are often all jumbled up.

Firstly a question, was he a private or was he a L/Cpl? His account has him down as the latter.

We know he was at Dulmen from 9th June until 2nd August 1916 and I suspect that is where the 2000 prisoners were, where the YMCA hut was and where the entertainment took place. Engers accommodation was part in a hotel and part in a theatre and there appear to have been about 100 prisoners there engaged on building a bridge across the Rhine. Engers was a working camp attached to Limburg so he would have officially transferred there though he never actually set foot in the camp itself, having gone to Engers directly from Dulmen. Although accommodated partly in a theatre, there would have been no entertainments there as they were all engaged in working on the bridge.

His later recollections may have been confused as the interviewer who took his statement said "What this witness has to say can, I think, be relied upon; he is a man of fair intelligence, but he finds some difficulty in expressing himself and, and his memory as to names and places is rather faulty" and that was only a month after he escaped!

Doug

PS his comments regarding the prisoners sleeping in the open relate to those forced to work behind the lines after capture. He himself did not go through that experience so he would have known of it either from seeing these prisoners come into Dulmen or from other prisoners.

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Doug Johnson

Bob,

His report is dated 18th December 1917 where his is listed as L/Cpl.

He is listed as L/Cpl for his award which was Gazettted on the 30th January 1920 (but dated as 5th May 1919).

As he was discharged on the 25th April, the award of the MM could not have been a reason for promotion in this case (as he was no longer serving).

There are two possibilities that I can think of;

1 A temporary promotion (possibly for his attachment to the machine gun section)

2 Self promotion.

Self promotion was not uncommon amongst PoWs though it was difficult to get away with for any length of time. It was done to avoid work, as NCO's were not required to work under the Hague convention. The only difficulty in this is that I think it applied to full corporals and above. There are vague references to this that I have seen but the whole issue is a bit confused as many NCO's were sent to work camps. The main difficulty in getting away with self promotion was parcels and letters which had to be sent to him as L/Cpl and not as private. Stripes were easy to achieve and some soldiers actually carried some with them solely for this purpose, sewing it on when they were either being moved back or in the cages. If he had successfully got away with self promotion then he would have had stripes on his uniform when he escaped which may have confused the person taking down his statement and then his statement formed the basis of his award of the MM.

Doug

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robins2

you may be right with the Temp. promotion, although as I mentioned there was only one Form in all his records that had him listed as L/Cpl, that was the posting mentioning the Gazzett, a picture I have of him returning home in uniform does not show clearly any stripe. Oh well on to the next research of the battle at Hooge when he was captured. The war diaries for his Battalion are not on line as yet

that I can find. I did find a trench map of the area around the time he was captured. I have visited the Hooge area several times in the past couple of years & have several photos of the area and have several battlefield objects that I picked up walking the fields. I built a small museum in my basement and now concentrating on WW1 artifacts,tench art etc. I have tried to get a copy of the Gazzette posting but have been unsucessfull so far.

Bob

Bob,

His report is dated 18th December 1917 where his is listed as L/Cpl.

He is listed as L/Cpl for his award which was Gazettted on the 30th January 1920 (but dated as 5th May 1919).

As he was discharged on the 25th April, the award of the MM could not have been a reason for promotion in this case (as he was no longer serving).

There are two possibilities that I can think of;

1 A temporary promotion (possibly for his attachment to the machine gun section)

2 Self promotion.

Self promotion was not uncommon amongst PoWs though it was difficult to get away with for any length of time. It was done to avoid work, as NCO's were not required to work under the Hague convention. The only difficulty in this is that I think it applied to full corporals and above. There are vague references to this that I have seen but the whole issue is a bit confused as many NCO's were sent to work camps. The main difficulty in getting away with self promotion was parcels and letters which had to be sent to him as L/Cpl and not as private. Stripes were easy to achieve and some soldiers actually carried some with them solely for this purpose, sewing it on when they were either being moved back or in the cages. If he had successfully got away with self promotion then he would have had stripes on his uniform when he escaped which may have confused the person taking down his statement and then his statement formed the basis of his award of the MM.

Doug

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Doug Johnson

Bob,

The Gazette is available free on line. The issue you want is 31759, the Fourth Supplement of tuesday the 27th January 1920 and this is a link to it.

Doug

PS I would seriously consider the possibility of self promotion in this case.

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robins2

thanks for the link to L.G., will most certainly consider the self promotion

Bob,

The Gazette is available free on line. The issue you want is 31759, the Fourth Supplement of tuesday the 27th January 1920 and this is a link to it.

Doug

PS I would seriously consider the possibility of self promotion in this case.

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lyndap

Hello, I realize all the posts are very old for this topic, but I'm hoping people get notifications for new posts.

I have planned a pilgrimage for this fall to follow the footsteps of my great uncle, and it includes his time in Dulmen camp. Our trip includes a couple of days in Wesel and Marl-Huls (the coal mine they tried to work him to death in) and we will try to see the Dulmen site as well. I have the book "Prisoners of the Kaiser" (thanks for that tip), and my great uncle's book from 1918 describing his experiences, but I would appreciate any other information.

Thanks, Lynda P

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David_Blanchard

With the release of the pow records by the Red Cross, I have found out that my grandfather George Edward Burridge, 8 Durhams was in Dulmen Camp he was captured on 27 May 19-8 at Craonne.

David

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annM

I

I have been helping my son-in-law research his grandfather's military history. Joseph Whitehouse of the KOYLI was taken prisoner in March 1918 and according to the ICRC records was a POW at Dulmen. We would be grateful for any help with our research.

Many thanks

Ann

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annM

attachment=194426:pow 001 (679x1024) (530x800) (424x640).jpg]

This is the reverse of photo previously sent. Can anyone help me decipher the names?

Ann

post-113854-0-48347400-1407689673_thumb.

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annM

post-113854-0-85860700-1407690226_thumb.

Joseph Whitehouse Private in KOYLI POW Dulmen

Can anyone identify the other pow's ?

Ann

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Guest Eoghan Mc

My great-uncle Charles Kavanagh was a member of the 8th (Irish) Batt. King's Liverpool Regt. and was captured at Guillemont along with most of the 8th on the 8th August 1916. I suppose sending the 8th into battle on the 8th day of the 8th month wasn't such a good idea.

Anyway, he was sent to Dulmen but survives the war and made it back to Liverpool.

What I'm finding suprising is that nearly all the other posts on here say their family members were captured in 1918, whereas my uncle was captured in 1916. I wonder if all the other men of the 8th went to Dulmen too or would they have been split up?

My Grand Father John Brady 8th battalion, Royal Irish Fussiiers was Captured at Luese / Ginchy wood in early september 1916 , ICRC records show he was also sent to Dulmen

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Kreijns

QUOTE (philg @ Feb 11 2008, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>if you PM me your email address, I'll send it all to you.Thank you for sharing the information Phil. Incredible stuff there.

Could you forward me the information you got about POW camp Dulmen. Thank you. M.kreijns@casema.nl

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