Artillery signaller insignia ID

[George Armstrong Custer]

I've recently had this photo of an artillery signaller unit professionally restored, so can now post images from it in the hope that someone can positively ID the insignia worn by one individual. I'd also like to know if there's any means of identifying which branch of the Artillery this unit might belong to - ie Horse or Field Artillery?

Here's the full pic:

And the individual whose insignia I'm interested in:

And a close-up of the insignia on his sleeve:

They seem to be, from bottom up, crossed cannons, a crown and then crossed flags. Are any of these indicative of rank? I notice that the only other figure in the main pic to wear the crossed flags is the sergeant sitting alongside the officer (a captain), but the sergeant's flags are worn above his stripes, not on the lower sleeve as by the figure detailed. Thanks in advance for any info!

ciao,

GAC

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

The Crossed Cannon & Crown are the mark of a Master Gunnery Instructor,IIRC,No doubt Grumpy will illucidate

[George Armstrong Custer]

That's great - many thanks for the swift response. Would a Master Gunnery instructor's rank be likely to indicate he was a regular soldier do you think? And is that rank solely associated with gunnery or could he be an instructor in signalling? Is there any means, too, of determining which branch of the artillery they're with? Thanks again!

ciao,

GAC

[essdee]

Crown over crossed cannon indicated Coastal Artillery ie RGA. according to Joe Sweeny in a response to a similar question of mine some time ago, can't seem to find it at the moment.

Some close ups of shoulder titles may be of help. A mixed bunch of RA from one of the signalling schools?

Stuart

[Smithmaps]

Two observations.

The crossed brass flags simply denote having attended and passed the signallers course.

Also the lamp shown in the photo is the 'Begbie' Signalling lamp. This was a very early lamp that was rapidly superceded by the 'Lucas' electrical which was vastly more portable. I would therefore date the photo to early in the war.

However, if this were a signal school photo, they could well be using obsolete equipment for much longer.

Guy

[George Armstrong Custer]

Ah, now that muddies things again essdee! If you're in the right of it regarding the crossed cannons and crown indicating Coastal Artillery (RGA), then that would fit in with where the soldier pictured came from. He was John Webster of Broughty Ferry near Dundee in Scotland, and I believe that at the outbreak of the Great War Broughty Ferry Castle was home to a unit of the RGA - so RGA would seem plausible (I'm unsure of which branch of the Royal Artillery he belonged to - but the RGA is suggestive because the RGA at Broughty Ferry Castle was clearly the closest unit to where he lived).

On the other hand, HarryBettsMCDCM's suggestion that the cannons and crowns may be badges of rank would seem to tie in with the fact that rank badges at that period - for officers and WO's - were on the sleeve near the cuff, and one might have expected Corps insignia to be either on the shoulder straps or collar? Rank badges would seem to tie in with Guy's ID of the crossed flags as indicating attendance at and passing of the signallers course - as the only other figure in the pic to wear them is the sergeant, who wears them on his upper right sleeve directly above his rank insignia. This might indicate that my man is wearing them on his lower left sleeve because that's where his rank insignia is located?

Many thanks too, to Guy for adding the detail of the signalling lamp type with its suggestions of the pic being early war - a supposition which the captain's rank insignia on his cuffs might support?

ciao,

GAC

[Smithmaps]

I understand the "cloth" (not Brass) signallers crossed flags worn on the upper arm by the other man to denote Signal Instructor.

Note he is also a Sergeant.

Also Cuff ranks were worn by officers all through the war, especially Artillery, as not being in the front line, they felt little compulsion to change.

I have an original cuff rank that I know to have been worn in the 15th Scottish Div in 1918, as the owner (Arty Signal captain)did not tranfsfer in to the 15th until June 1918

Guy

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks Guy - what you say about RA officers hanging onto tunics with cuff insignia longer than most frontline infantry officers makes sense - particularly so, I guess, if the pic was taken at a UK based RA signal training school, which might also tie in with the Captain looking a fairly elderly man (BTW - the Captain also has what appears to be metal letter 'T's under each of the Artillery grenades on his tunic collars - T for Training I wonder?).

I've enlarged the sergeant's sleeve insignia, and it looks to me as if his crossed flags may also be shiny brass pinned onto the sleeve:

And whilst enlarging, noticed that the sergeant in fact wears the crossed flags above his stripes on both sleeves:

ciao,

GAC

[Smithmaps]

You could be right, they look brass, but worn here denotes Signals Instructor.

The Brass letter T means 'Territorial', and denotes one of Kitchener's 'New' Army Divisions.

Just rules out 'regular' soldiers.

Interesting that they do not wear the blue/white Signallers Brassard.

Also the Sergeant appears to be wearing a Glengarry. Could denote a Scottish Division.

Guy

[Staffsyeoman]

Crown over crossed guns usually indicates a SMIG - Sergeant Major Instructor in Gunnery

[JulianB]

the T indeed stands for Territorial but they were completely separate from the New / Kitchener armies/divisions !

(sse explanation in LLT)

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks Guy and Julian. This is interesting - so this could be a Territorial unit which was in existence before the outbreak of war in 1914? I wonder, therefore, if theis goes some way to confirming that it was the RGA unit which was based at Broughty Ferry Castle - and, had, I believe, been based there throughout most of the second half of the 19th century.

And thanks also, Staffsyeoman. I'm wondering if the rank of crown over crossed cannon would be equivalent to that of WOI or WOII? I'd be very grateful if it can be confirmed whether the crown and cannons are a rank rather than simply badging for the RGA (my feeling is that any RGA badging would be more likely to have been in the form of shoulder titles - is this correct?)

ciao,

GAC

[Staffsyeoman]

GAC,

Just to confuse issues... a SMIG is a rank and an appointment. He's a senior NCO of Sergeant Major rank carrying out specialist training duties.

[Muerrisch]

A lot of misconceptions above, partly due to believing then was as now!

Lets deal with the easy bit: crossed signalling flags. The material, whether worsted, bullion or gilding metal [brass to you] signified nothing, unless within a unit custom and practice, or the adjutant, dictated otherwise. When worn lower left sleeve, means a soldier passed in the annual signalling test. When worn upper right sleeve above rank chevrons, means assistant instructor in signalling.

Now the crossed cannon and crown above. I should say that the RA and its predecessors became a bit hard up for badge icons, and the crossed guns and crown have been, at different times, pressed into service to signify many things. At the time of the photograph it meant that the soldier was a member of the 1st Prize Winning battery or company.

He is, as far as I can tell, a gunner, not holding any rank.

[Smithmaps]

They also appear enamelled as below.

I know nothing about when they were coloured or how old each type is, perhaps somebody can enlighten us.

I know the brass ones were still used in WW2.

But I just noticed, the ones shown in the close up picture, look enamelled to me.

Guy

[Muerrisch]

To the best of my knowledge, only officers wore 'T' badges. There is no easy way to distinguish a TF other rank, unless he happens to be wearing the Imperial Service tablet in white metal on the right breast.

TF artillery were allowed to compete for the Prize badges.

[Muerrisch]

re. enamelled signalling badges, yes, there are lots around: I have never found them prescribed in regulations but there seem to be too many around to be 'vanity' items purchased by the soldiers.

I should add that worsted and gilding metal versions of many badges co-existed for many years, both at Home and overseas. Any self-respecting RSM or Adjt. would make strenuous efforts to standardise within a unit. Worsted ones were very handy for attaching to tropical uniforms by press-studs, as indeed were rank badges. Gilding metal ones leave a rather visible hole in other than the coarse SD, however!

[Cliff. Hobson]

They also appear enamelled as below.

I know nothing about when they were coloured or how old each type is, perhaps somebody can enlighten us.

"I KNOW THE BRASS ONES WERE USED IN WORLD WAR TWO"

But I just noticed, the ones shown in the close up picture, look enamelled to me.

Guy

The brass ones & enamelled ones were not standard issue, in W.W.2 if you wanted to wear them you had to buy them.

Cliff.

P.S, I used to wear the crossed flags

[George Armstrong Custer]

A couple of more details of interest which I've picked up on the photo:

The shoulder titles of the men siting cross-legged at the front are the most visible. I've enlarged that of the man on the front first right, then the man on the second front right.

First front right man's shoulder title:

As can be (just about!) seen, it has a 'T' at the top, then a number (can't make it out) and then a title of some length which seems to be of curved brass lettering. I'm assuming, then, that this chap is a Teritorial like the officer in the pic.

The fellow beside him, however, has a simpler shoulder title which simply shows a brass 'RGA':

The second soldier, however, is wearing a brassard, which I'm assuming may be the blue/white signalling one Guy referred to earlier, and which four of the men in the pic seem to be wearing. The sergeant in the glengarry, and the lance corporal on the far left of the same row, seem to be wearing thicker brassards of a darker colour.

What I'm wondering now is whether this is more likely to be a pic of a mixed group at a training establishment, or whether it is the signalling unit of an Artillery unit - that of a Battery, perhaps - complete with all it's equipment? Would the configuration of Captain, Sergeant, 3 junior NCO's and 12 men shown in the pic be consistent with this? Reading Aubrey Wade - himself an RA signaller of course - in 'The War of The Guns', he talks of 'a dozen or so' signallers riding with his Battery:

Into the main street of Le Havre we rode, the Major leading, with satellite trumpeter, followed by the dozen or so signallers on horseback who were what was known as the battery staff, and whose duty it was to maintain communications in action. Each of us carried some article of signalling equipment, either a telephone or a set of flags. The telephone was a very solid and heavy affair in a leather case suspended from the shoulders. The flags hung in flag-buckets from the saddle, and stopped you dismounting in a hurry. Morse flags, semaphore flags, blue and white, made a splash of colour at the head of the battery, and we were not to know that such things were not used in trench warfare at all.

There's no mention by Wade of the heliograph, the 'Begbie' signalling lamp, nor the telescopes shown in my photo, and I wonder if different equipment was carried by the RGA to the RFA - with the RFA utilising flags and field telephones, whilst the greater distances involved with RGA firing might have necessitated the use of flags, heliographs and signalling lamps observed through telescopes? If so, this would again be a pointer as to whether the pic shows a homogenous RGA signalling unit.

ciao,

GAC

[Smithmaps]

The second soldier, however, is wearing a brassard, which I'm assuming may be the blue/white signalling one Guy referred to earlier, and which four of the men in the pic seem to be wearing. The sergeant in the glengarry, and the lance corporal on the far left of the same row, seem to be wearing thicker brassards of a darker colour.

George

None of these guys are wearing a 'Brassard' worn on the right arm.

They wear Lanyards

Guy

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks for that clarification, Guy - for some reason we used to refer to the shoulder lanyards as 'brassards' in our school cadet unit in Australia - obviously a local anomaly!

I wonder if the arm-band brassards were only worn in the field or on exercise - though the portrait you posted seems to suggest they were worn for 'walking out' as well. Any idea what the lanyards worn by some of the OR's in the pic might indicate, then?

Regards,

George

[squirrel]

Lanyards indicate nothing in particular. They were issued to keep the clasp knife on and this was kept in the top left hand pocket.

Prewar issued to cavalry and mounted troops, and RA for keeping a fuse key on.

After the start of the war issued to all troops, mounted, gunners and infantry.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Thanks for that, Squirrel - it no doubt explains whty some in the pic have bothered to wear the lanyard and others not. It would seem to indicate, too, that wearing or not wearing the lanyard was a matter of personal choice.

ciao,

GAC

[squirrel]

I should think that wearing a white(ish) lanyard in the front line would not be a terribly wise thing to do and that it might have been worn but concealed in some way.

I have seen a picture of a soldier's kit with the lanyard attached to the braces button and the knife in the trouser pocket - far more sensible in the circumstances.

Remember that apart from the blade and the pointy thing, the clasp knife had a tin opener on it. An invaluable piece of kit for every soldier I would have thought.

[Smithmaps]

Signallers proper wore the brassard all the time. The Captains uniform I have has the brassard sewn on. i.e. it is not removable.

One question I asked Arthur Halestrap before he died (signaller veteran 46th Div at 104 yrs) was; did the signaller wear the brassard if he went over the top? He replied yes, they never thought of removing it.

I understand that at regiment level, regimantal signallers wore a 1" blue band round the lower left sleeve. I can only assume that these insignia were applied diferently in different units.

Don't forget that signallers proper were Royal Engineers. Also despatch riders wore the brassard on both arms.

Guy