Gary Samson Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 I'm researching a soldier who enlisted in the TF on 26 Jan 1915 at Handel St Recruiting Office, London and was initially assigned to the 1st London Regt 2/Res. I've not been able to locate any information on the '2/Res' designation and wondered if any Pals could explain what this signifies. On 17 April 1915 he was transferred to 1/1st (City of London) Battalion, The London Regiment. I imagine that these two units are almost one and the same thing but the '2/Res' (2nd Reserve?) tag seems to suggest a subtle difference. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 I suspect this means his initial service was with the 2/1st Battalion London Regiment. In the early period of the war, the wartime raised battalions of the London Regiment were often referred to as 'reserve' battalions. You might find this of interest from my website: http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/1londons.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Gary In August/September after war broke out, each battalion of the London Regt raised a 2nd battaltion to provide drafts/replacements to the 1st battalion. This is what would have happened to your soldier. He would have initially enlisted in the 2/1st Bn and then joined the 1/1st as a replacement in April 1915. Here is a brief summary of 1/1st Bn 4 August 1914 - Based in Handel St., Bloomsbury, W.C. Formed part of 1st London Brigade, 1st London Division. 4 September 1914 - Embarked at Southampton for Malta with the 1st London Brigade. Arrived 14 September 1914. 21 February 1915 - Returned to England. 11 May 1915 - Landed at Le Havre, France and joined the 25th Brigade, 8th Division. 8 February 1916 - Transferred to 167th Brigade, 56th (1st London) Division. 6 February 1918 - Absorbed the disbanded 2/1st Battalion, and re-titled 1st Battalion. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 19 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Many thanks, Paul. Of course, it has to be the 2/1st Bn (D'oh!). Your web link has also proved extremely useful. My man suffered a GSW to his left leg on 9 May 1915 which it seems, from the background to the 1st Bn on your website, resulted from his unit's participation in the Battle of Aubers Ridge. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 19 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Thanks for your reply, Geoff. I was thrown by the 2/Res designation but of course the 2/1st Bn makes perfect sense. Could it have been that the 1/1st Bn was in France earlier than 11 May 1915 since, as you'll see from my other post, the soldier I'm researching was wounded in France (possibly in action) two days before this date. Paul's website suggests a crossing to France as early as March 1915. Thanks again Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Gary The dates I gave you came from Becke's Order of Battle. It is possible that they are incorrect has I have found a couple of discrencies that dont tally with the battalion histories. Unfortunately I dont have the history for the 1st Bn and I'm not sure If one was ever published. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Gary Further to my last reply I Have just had a look at Pauls link and yes obviously Becke's is incorrect if Paul says they were at Aubers Ridge and your man was wounded on 9th May. I have to contact paul and see knows what date(s) they did land in France or I'll have to pop up the PRO and have a look at the diary Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 This is taken from the War Diary (although not a direct quote): arrived Southampton 10.3.15 and sailed on SS Munich for France. Arrived Havre next day. The other information on my site is also taken from the war diary; these are notes I used when compiling the book on Combles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ephraim Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Gary If you want to read more on the subject of Aubers Ridge where you're man was wounded you might want to read 'A serious disappointment' by Adrian Bristow This is an excellent account of the battle. It was certainly a serious disappointment for the BEF who suffered 12 thousand casualties for no gain whatsover and in particular for my great grandfather who was killed during this engagement serving with the Royal Sussex Regiment Regards Ephraim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 The '2 Res' could well be a reference to what we usually think of as the 3rd Line i.e. he enlisted in 3/1 Londons. A War Office instruction of 24 Nov 14 states that when Imperial Service units proceed overseas a second reserve unit is to formed and designated e.g. 5th (2nd Reserve) Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders. A further instruction on 30 Jan 15 introduces the familiar 1/5, 2/5 and 3/5 designations. Jock Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Jock could well be right, as the 3/1st Londons, I see from my notes, were indeed formed in January 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 You might find this section on Abers Ridge helpful: click Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 19 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Many thanks for all the additional replies on this thread. Ephraim - I'll certainly try to track down a copy of Adrian Bristow's A Serious Disappointment, I hadn't appreciated the importance of the Battle of Aubers Ridge until I started researching this soldier. Jock - Is the smart money now on 1st London Regt 2/Res being what we would call 3/1st and not the 2/1st? Chris - Thanks for the link to the Aubers section of this site. An extremely informative and well put together account of what appears for the most part a disastrous day in the field for the BEF. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Jock - Is the smart money now on 1st London Regt 2/Res being what we would call 3/1st and not the 2/1st? Gary - that was my initial reaction to your originl post, before I had seen the replies. With the 19th London Regiment, the 3/19th was authorised on about 26 Feb 1915, This was because the first line unit had been told that it would shortly be going overseas, which it did with the 2nd London Div (later 47 div) on 9 March. At that time the three battalions of the 19th Londons were known as 19th (Imperial Service) Battalion, County of London Regt 19th (First Reserve) Battalion, County of London Regt 19th (Second Reserve) Battalion, County of London Regt It seems from the war diaries to have been a few weeks later until they started calling themselves 1/ 2/ and 3/19th. I was led to believe that this nomenclature was adopted at the same time as divisions switched from descriptive (2nd London Div) to numeric (47 Div) names, so was interested to see Jock's post above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 Jock - Is the smart money now on 1st London Regt 2/Res being what we would call 3/1st and not the 2/1st? Gary, I think so - seems to fit with the timings. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 Gary 1/1st landed at Havre on 11th March 1915. My error I'd misread 11.3.15 as 11.5.15. I looked through the 8th Div history last night but the only reference to 1/1st Londons is when they joined 25th Bde and after the battle on 9th May. The Div was attacking towards Fromelles on 9th May. The book "A Serious Disappointment" does not mentioned 1/1st and another book I have covering the action does not even list them in the order of battle for 8th Div. I have a couple of other sources I can look through tonight and if I find any information about the 1/1st on 9th May I'll let you know, But looks like they may have been in reserve during the battle. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 20 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2004 Many thanks for your continued help, Geoff. It's odd that there are few references to the battalion's participation in the battle. Paul's research suggests that "The battalion took part in the Battle of Aubers Ridge on 9th May 1915, losing 3 officers and 120 men." Not an insignificant loss and certainly worth a mention in any account of the battle, I would have thought. I'm heading up to Kew next weekend so I'll read through the 1/1st Battalion's war diary and try to establish just what the unit's commitments were at this time. Thanks again Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 I can't find the reference where I got this from now; I will be at Kew tomorrow and fish out the War Diary to double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 21 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2004 Thanks for the information on the naming pattern for the 19th London Regiment, Charles. It does now seem clear that 2/Res in this case is the equivalent of the later 3/1st. Thanks also to everyone who took the time to contribute to this thread. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ephraim Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 Gary I had a quick browse through my copy of a serious disappointment and 1/1st Londons are listed in the casualties appendix as having suffered 199 casulaties including 5 officers. Adrian Bristow took these figures from the 8th division history They were in 25th brigade under General Lowry-Cole and, it appears very much in action that day judging by those statistics It does seem rather odd that they're not mentioned in the text but if you consider that the two Royal Sussex units lost 750 between them it's not so hard to understand why they were overlooked in comparison God, can you imagine us losing 200 blokes from one battalion now? I read the stats but somehow can never quite comprehend the scale Ephraim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 I had a look for the war diary today - it is missing from the box. Another one lost or miss-filed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Samson Posted 21 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2004 Not good, Paul. Hopefully it's been mis-filed and someone soon will have the basic commonsense, on finding the diary in amongst other papers, to bring it to the attention of NA staff. It's deeply regrettable that this unique piece of history has gone missing, I'd hate to think that it's been stolen. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Bluestein Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 I have been watching this thread with intrest, my great uncle was killed at Courcelette the Somme serving with the 1 Bn. London Regt. (Royal Fusiliers). Is that the same regiment as the 1/1st London Regt. discussed above? Thanks in advance David A little confused in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 David - yes it is the same battalion. The battle in which your relative died was at Leuze Wood, near Combles, itself part of the Battle of Flers Courcelette. It is described in my book Combles. Gary - yes, let's hope it surfaces. Thankfully it is not the whole diary; there is another file for when they were with 56th Div. I shall check that box next time to see if it is there by mistake - ran out of time today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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