Major Edward Mannock, VC

[Desdichado]

When I was a youngster, we had the Daily Telegraph delivered. Each year, on the anniversary of his death, a small piece would appear commemorating the death of Major Mannock. He was always described therein as the "King of Air Fighters." My father, an ex-pilot, told me that Mannock probably downed as many German aircraft as Manfred von Richthofen although he was only credited with 73 kills (some say 79).

I haven't found much written about Major Mannock's final combat. Did any German pilot claim to have shot him down? Was he as well known to the Germans as von Richthofen was to the allies? Much publicity was given to the death of the Rittmeister but Mannock doesn't appear to have attracted any public accolades at all - at least not at the time of his death. It seems as though British and Commonwealth allied flying aces were not feted as were their French and German counterparts. Does anyone have any input on this?

Regards - Des

[Jonathan Saunders]

I am not sure it is true to say he did not attract any public accolades as he was awarded the VC plus his diary was published although not until sometime after the war - possibly late as 1960s.

I have been under the impression that Mannock's official score of 73 was "uplifted" to get him above Bishop (whose own score was very controversial with claims that it was as low as anything between about 2 and 12 from memory). However Mannock's unofficial score may have been well in excess of 73.

I have seen claims for McCudden of up to 104 but cant recall if this included "damaged" as well as shot down. McCudden's official score was 57 so you see the type of variation that can exist.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Jonathan Saunders]

Should have added that as opposed to the French and German propaganda machines, the British policy was not to show a preference for the performance of airmen against those of the other services. McCudden and Warneford were named around Jan 1918 as leading aces, but prior to that the public knew little other than the names of pilots such as Lanoe Hawker, Albert Ball and Leefe-Robertson and possibly Rhodes-Moorhouse.

Regards,

Jonathan S

[Desdichado]

Should have added that as opposed to the French and German propaganda machines, the British policy was not to show a preference for the performance of airmen against those of the other services. McCudden and Warneford were named around Jan 1918 as leading aces, but prior to that the public knew little other than the names of pilots such as Lanoe Hawker, Albert Ball and Leefe-Robertson and possibly Rhodes-Moorhouse.

Regards,

Jonathan S

Thanks Jonathan. Do you have an account of Mannock's last flight or know where I can find one? I seem to recall there was some debate as to whether he committed suicide when his SE-5a went down in flames. I believed he carried a revolver with him in the air in case of this eventuality.

[bantamforgot]

There was a struggle to get Mick Mannock the VC. Quite a lot on Wiki?

Colin

[Neil Clark]

Fortunes of War Series

MANNOCK VC

Ace with One Eye

By Frederick Oughton and Commander Vernon Smythe

ISBN: 1-847145-029-4

£9.99

Cerberus Publishing Ltd

Penn House

Bannerliegh Road

Leigh Woods

BRISTOL

BS8 3PF

I have a copy if you have difficulty...

[Jonathan Saunders]

Thanks Jonathan. Do you have an account of Mannock's last flight or know where I can find one? I seem to recall there was some debate as to whether he committed suicide when his SE-5a went down in flames. I believed he carried a revolver with him in the air in case of this eventuality.

I know nothing more than the accepted accounted. Mannock had been attacking an LVG and had followed it down to 200ft when he was hit by ground fire near Laventie. I went looking for the location this August as it happens. The incident was witnessed by Inglis, Mannock's wingman on this occasion and Inglis confirmed these details in his Combat Report. Ira Jones went looking for the wreck of the plane as soon as he heard the news but found nothing amongst the shell pocked landscape.

The revolver was as you say, carried to shoot his brains out, rather than die by fire. I expect this whole incident happened far too quickly for Mannock to carry this out and possibly he was killed outright by ground fire prior to crashing.

Some more info on his memory. A plaque was placed, and annual services were conducted, in Canterbury Cathedral in Mannock's memory - I assume still there? And a wing of Canterbury Hospital was named after him as was a building in Canterbury. Wellingborough ATC were called the Mannock Squadron.

Regards,

Jonathan

Fortunes of War Series

MANNOCK VC

Ace with One Eye

By Frederick Oughton and Commander Vernon Smythe

ISBN: 1-847145-029-4

£9.99

Naval & Militray Press having been advertising this book at a ridiculous price like £2.95 or £3.95.

[Neil Clark]

Re the Canterbury Cathedral Plaque, have a look here at the entry for Mannock -

http://www.kentfallen.com/Vc%20register.html

[centurion]

McCudden and Warneford were named around Jan 1918 as leading aces, but prior to that the public knew little other than the names of pilots such as Lanoe Hawker, Albert Ball and Leefe-Robertson and possibly Rhodes-Moorhouse.

Surely some mistake. Warneford although a VC was never an ace having gained his VC bombing down an airship in 1915. he was killed not long afterwards. He would have been well known to the British public in 1915 not 1918! One assumes that all the other VC airmen would also be known to the public including Bishop who's VC was awarded in 1917.

Whilst there was an official policy of not highlighting one pilot above the rest of his unit the award and gazeting of various gongs must have alerted the British Press and unofficially there would have been some publicity

[centurion]

However Mannock's unofficial score may have been well in excess of 73.

I have seen claims for McCudden of up to 104 but cant recall if this included "damaged" as well as shot down. McCudden's official score was 57 so you see the type of variation that can exist.

Mannock was very good at encouraging and bringing forward the new pilots and would carry out joint attacks with them but insist that they be credited with the victory rather than sharing it. (whereas in the German case Richthofen would have had all the credit). In his last action Mannock had just carried out such a joint attack with a novice pilot.

[alex revell]

Lieut-Col.

Be careful in your remarks about the holy Richthofen. You'll be getting hate mail from the USA!.

[centurion]

Lieut-Col.

Be careful in your remarks about the holy Richthofen. You'll be getting hate mail from the USA!.

I'll add it to the pile

[Jonathan Saunders]

Mannock was very good at encouraging and bringing forward the new pilots and would carry out joint attacks with them but insist that they be credited with the victory rather than sharing it. (whereas in the German case Richthofen would have had all the credit). In his last action Mannock had just carried out such a joint attack with a novice pilot.

Yes it proves that Mannock was not overly concerned with his own score. Of course he had been under the tutelage of a very good instructor ...

[Desdichado]

Mannock was very good at encouraging and bringing forward the new pilots and would carry out joint attacks with them but insist that they be credited with the victory rather than sharing it. (whereas in the German case Richthofen would have had all the credit). In his last action Mannock had just carried out such a joint attack with a novice pilot.

I wonder if thery're addressing hate male to Mannock's ghost. I know we're led to believe that allied pilots saluted von Richthofen after his death but Mannock didn't. He is reported as saying words to the effect of: " I hope he burned all the way down."

It wasn't only Manfred that took credit for kills that weren't his. His brother Lothar took the credit for shooting down Albert Ball but apparently Ball's SE-5a was seen by a German officer on the ground to appear inverted out of a cloud out of control. The theory is Captain Ball becamed disoriented in the clouds and crashed without being hit by a German fighter.

Wasn't there a German pilot who claimed the French ace Guynemer? I remember reading as a youth that the French myth was that Guynemer flew so high that he couldn't come down.

Regards - Des

[Adrian Roberts]

I have been under the impression that Mannock's official score of 73 was "uplifted" to get him above Bishop (whose own score was very controversial with claims that it was as low as anything between about 2 and 12 from memory). However Mannock's unofficial score may have been well in excess of 73.

Above the Trenches, which lists and where possible identifies all the victories of the British Empire aces, puts Mannock's score at 61, and says that this figure has a "higher than average degree of verifiability". The figure of 73 is thought to have been arrived at by Ira Jones in an attempt to boost his hero's score to above that of Bishop's supposed score.

Jones wrote the book "King of Air Fighters", Mannock's biography, in the 1930's. I too remember the "in memoriam" notices for Mannock in the Daily Telegraph. I wonder who placed them there? It wouldn't have been Ira Jones; he died in 1960 which was before my time.

whereas in the German case Richthofen would have had all the credit)

Any formation leader is going to have the advantage in raising his score, simply by being the one to decide when to open fire. Mannock may well have credited some score to novice pilots, but even if MvR didn't do this, is there any proof that he actively took credit from others? After all, he was held in high regard by his men.

There was a struggle to get Mick Mannock the VC

Unlike McCudden, Mannock's VC was posthumous, and had to be actively campaigned for by Jones et al

[alex revell]

Some of you chaps should post on the Aerodrome site. Those of us who do are always under attack by the Americans to whom Richthofen and the jasta pilots could do no wrong.

[Dolphin]

Some of you chaps should post on the Aerodrome site. Those of us who do are always under attack by the Americans to whom Richthofen and the jasta pilots could do no wrong.

Alex

Funny, I noticed that tendency too. Perhaps that's why I don't bother with the site any more.

Cheers

Gareth

[alex revell]

Gareth,

Yes, but get back in there, we need the support. We're way behind the Lines, surounded by Huns on all sides!

[Jonathan Saunders]

Gareth,

Yes, but get back in there, we need the support. We're way behind the Lines, surounded by Huns on all sides!

I am not disputing they are a knowledgeable bunch on The Aerodrome - I have bursts of reading through threads on there but rarely post. It is the lack of decorum that puts me off.

[Adrian Roberts]

Some of you chaps should post on the Aerodrome site. Those of us who do are always under attack by the Americans to whom Richthofen and the jasta pilots could do no wrong.

If all I was interested in was the Jastas, I probably would go in there. But (though I haven't been there for some months) I hadn't noticed much about, say, airships, or the Aerial aspect of the Dardanelles campaign, or the development of Naval Aviation, all of which also interest me.

[centurion]

I find Aerodrome

a too narrow

b too dogmatic

c far too partisan and clique ridden

[alex revell]

Jonathan, Adrian and Centurian,

Yes I agree with all your reservations about the Aerodrome site, but if others don't post then all the statements and arguments they put forth become facts and accepted as such by those not as knowledgeable. The best way to counter the German bias, I agree very heavy, as is OTF, is to put forward the other view. Why is it that the Americans, almost without exception, are so overwelmingly interested in the German side of things. I've been wondering about this since I started researching in the 1960s. Very strange.

[Adrian Roberts]

Why is it that the Americans, almost without exception, are so overwelmingly interested in the German side of things. I've been wondering about this since I started researching in the 1960s. Very strange.

Why does the image of Snoopy in Red Baron guise come to mind?!

Well, I daresay I'll call back into theaerodrome from time to time, but the problem for me, (still having a family and job), is that I stay up far too late on this forum and ww2chat, without trying to keep up with yet another forum.

Adrian

[David Filsell]

I have been preparing a talk for the WFA an fighter pilots and have attempted a contrast and compare theme on the leading six RFC/RAF and German Air Service 'aces'. The research proved fascinating and it rapidly became clear that clear that apart from their leading positions in the scores tallies (and accepting that Mannock's was at least influenced by Jones post war actions) it became very clear that the two pilots were alike in three other ways.

Both gained justified reputations within their services as aerial tacticians and teachers of their "chicks" - the new inexperienced pilots. Wether or not both were shot down from the ground - as seems likely - or not, both were definitely ignoring a lesson that they taught and retaught others - do not follow an enemy down. It also seems certain from written evidence from contemporary sources that both were suffering from - and I will use an old term - combat fatigue when they were killed. Thirdly, in terms of influence on the use, deployment and operation of fighting pilots and machines no one else seem to have had such an influence on their respective air forces at squadron/wing level.

It is generally accepted that the British did not seek to publicise the achievements of leading air fighters - just as it is recognised that the Germans firmly did use them for propaganda at home and abroad. However in 1918 new books by both Ball and Bishop were advertsied in the Sphere magazine. The brief ad copy certainly implied that these two were well known to the public. (Richthofen's own account was also translated into English, with an editoril justifying its publication by the editor of Aeroplane, C G Grey) in 1918. I believe that serious research in contemporary newspapers and magazines may show that British aces were rather better publicised than is generally thought.

I have been preparing a talk for the WFA an fighter pilots and have attempted a contrast and compare theme on the leading six RFC/RAF and German Air Service 'aces'. The research proved fascinating and it rapidly became clear that clear that apart from their leading positions in the scores tallies (and accepting that Mannock's was at least influenced by Jones post war actions) it became very clear that the two pilots were alike in three other ways.

Both gained justified reputations within their services as aerial tacticians and teachers of their "chicks" - the new inexperienced pilots. Wether or not both were shot down from the ground - as seems likely - or not, both were definitely ignoring a lesson that they taught and retaught others - do not follow an enemy down. It also seems certain from written evidence from contemporary sources that both were suffering from - and I will use an old term - combat fatigue when they were killed. Thirdly, in terms of influence on the use, deployment and operation of fighting pilots and machines no one else seem to have had such an influence on their respective air forces at squadron/wing level.

It is generally accepted that the British did not seek to publicise the achievements of leading air fighters - just as it is recognised that the Germans firmly did use them for propaganda at home and abroad. However in 1918 new books by both Ball and Bishop were advertsied in the Sphere magazine. The brief ad copy certainly implied that these two were well known to the public. (Richthofen's own account was also translated into English, with an editoril justifying its publication by the editor of Aeroplane, C G Grey) in 1918. I believe that serious research in contemporary newspapers and magazines may show that British aces were rather better publicised than is generally thought.

[David Filsell]

Sorry about the repetition - it probably also goes on for longer than a minute and suffers from deviation - finger trouble!