Pte 4/1874 P.J Bull 1/4th Hampshires Kut POW

[ZimRich]

Hi,

could anyone possibly do a lookup for me as regards Private Percival John Bull 4/1874 (200198) who served with the 1/4th Hampshires and who was taken prisoner at Kut. I have him on a casualty list as confirmed as having been taken POW when the garrison surrendered however he is listed as having died on the 10/10/1918 and is remembered on the Kirkee memorial in India.

Thanks

Rich

[Ryegate]

Hi

These are his details on Find my Past

You may already have these but they appear to confirm what you have posted.

Name: BULL, Percival John

Regiment, Corps etc.: Hampshire Regiment

Battalion etc.: 1/4th (T.F.) Battalion.

Last name: Bull

First name(s): Percival John

Initials: P J

Birthplace: Titchfield, Hants

Enlisted: Botley, Hants

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 200198

Date died: 10 October 1918

How died: Died

Theatre of war: Mesopotamia

Supplementary Notes:

[ZimRich]

Thanks Ryegate for the reply, much appreciated.

As the date of death is October 1918 and he is remembered at Kirkee am I correct in presuming that he survived the death march and POW camps and was released by the Turks only to unfortunately die after his first taste of freedom in several years at the Kirkee hospital. Would there be any way of finding which POW camp he was imprisoned in?

Thanks again for any help

Rich

[Andrea Bishop]

Hi - I think this relates to my mum's cousin and we didn't know he'd been a POW. Such a shame, another month and he might have survived. 

 

 

[JulianR]

The Turks sued for an Armistice which was signed at Mudros on 30th October, 1918, so depending on where he was held he might have been free by then.

[MaureenE]

I do not know how someone who was taken prisoner at Kut could have died in India 10 October 1918 unless he was in the batch of wounded and sick soldiers who were released at the time Kut fell. 

 

Something to note about about the death in India is that I looked in the India deaths on findmypast and there is a death 10 October 1918, but it is for a John Bull who died of influenza and was buried at Poona, who was QMS 1/4th Hants Regt. aged 25. I wonder whether there are two men of the same surname who have somehow become mixed up, or whether they are all the same person.

 

Two see whether there are any records relating to Bull as a POW, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Prisoners of the Turks (First World War)

https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War)

 

Cheers

Maureen

[ss002d6252]

#200198 Percival Bull is shown in the effects as dying on 10 Oct 18 - no place of death given. Monies paid to his father Alfred.
 

The war gratuity of £24 10s would indicate enlistment pre-war, which would match what you would expect. The unpaid wages were £46 which would again suggest a man who had not been able to claim them for a good while.

 

Soldiers Died Great War and CWGC have nothing for a John Bull of the Hampshire's dying on 10 Oct 18 in India, perhaps something to look in to.

 

Craig

[MaureenE]

14 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The unpaid wages were £46 which would again suggest a man who had not been able to claim them for a good while.

 Why would a man  at a major cantonment   in India not be claiming his pay? It does make you suspect there were two men.

 

Cheers

Maureen 

[charlie962]

Percy Bull 1874  was one of those men exchanged** and sent to India at the Fall of Kut so did not go on that terrible march. Those exchanged were the worst cases so it looks as though he finally succumbed to his illness/injuries.

 

Or he could have been one of those unfortunates who died of influenza ? He is buried in Poona and his CWGC record can be found with service number 200198, his renumbering of 1917 period.

 

Charlie

 

**edit- I need to check if he was in the first group exchanged (from Kut) or the second group from Baghdad. edit- he was exchanged from Baghdad-see below

Edited 13 November , 2018 by charlie962

[charlie962]

CWGC says died of sickness

[Andrea Bishop]

Thank you so much for this information. His father's name was Alfred, so with that information about wages being paid to him we can assume he was a POW. As far as we know his name is on the  Kirkee War Memorial and I have managed to get photos of that. Would you know if there are any photos of him?

 

I've also been researching my Grandfather Frederick Charles Burnett who was a gunner with 119th Heavy Battery (number 16575).

He survived, but sadly because he was gassed in the war his lungs were weak and he died in 1931 from TB when my mum was only 6 weeks old, so I'm just trying to find out as much about him as I can for her. I've got copies of the war diaries for the first month he was in France 6/11/14 to 30/11/18, his medal card (there is a comment on that which I don't understand - "deleted from 1914-18 Star Roll) and his medals. He has a football medal which I can't find out any information on (RA Portsmouth Football League 1910-11. Will try to attach photo. I also know he was at Fort Wallington, Fareham, Hampshire. Anymore information or photos on them will be so nice for my mum to see. Thank you so much - this forum is so good!

Andrea Bishop

[Andrea Bishop]

Thank you so much for this extra information on Percival. I would never have known all this without your help!

[Michelle Young]

It's probably best that you start a new thread for Frederick. For medal index cards, please read the article in the e Long Long Trail which explains how to interpret a Medal Index Card.

Michelle 

[Andrea Bishop]

Ok yes I'll do that thank you. 

[charlie962]

Andrea,

Here is a bit of background for Percy John Bull's experience. It is a 'Forgotten Front' but deserves to be remembered.

 

Bull, Percival John
Pte, 1/4 Hants, 4/1874 and 200198

Died aged 24 in India 10/10/18 of sickness and buried at Poona.
Son of Alfred and Ada Mary Bull, of Cardbridge (or Curdridge), Botley, Hampshire.

 

 

Percy was with his Battalion on 18/3/15 when it landed at Basra with 33rd Indian Brigade and was attached to the 6th Indian Division, Force D as it advanced up from Basra towards Baghdad. Initially victorious, the Division's lines became more and more stretched and the inadequacy of the overall campaign strategy resulted in a retreat before Baghdad in November 1915 and a decision to hole up in the town of Kut-al-Amara and await rescue.

HQ and 'A' Company of the 1/4th Hants were left inside Kut along with over 13,000 British and Indian troops when the siege started 7th December 1915. Attempts by the Turks to take the town were beaten off.The Turks settled down to starve the garrison out. The town was repeatedly shelled and bombed, including the hospital.

The garrison surrendered 29th April 1916 because they had run out of food. All relief attempts had failed and the gallant Relief Force lost more men than were under siege.

 

The men of the Garrison were in a severely weakened state at the surrender. The Turks allowed an exchange of a first lot of the worst of the sick men- mainly Indian because they wanted to keep the British to put on display in Baghdad.The rest were forced to march 8 miles up the Tigris to Shumran (various spellings) which took them 8 hours due to their starved condition. They were given no food until they reached the camp and many died when eating that first issue of Turkish black biscuits. They were left in the open without shelter from the blazing sun.

They spent a week at Shumran where disease -cholera, dysentery and enteritis- broke out.Men started selling their clothes to the Arabs and Turks to top up any meagre ration they received. Eventually the sickest men were put on a boat to Baghdad whilst the majority were force-marched 100 miles to Baghdad, beaten, murdered, robbed and starved by their guards all the way. Many dropped out and died. Stragglers were easy victims to the local arabs.

 

Percy Bull was already ill and was left behind at Shumran when his unit marched out. He was probably sent up to Baghdad on a boat that picked up a number of the fallen-out sick on the way.

The main body of the Garrison had continued their onward journey into captivity leaving yet more sick men in Baghdad.

 

 At Baghdad the conditions were appalling. It took several days before the men were moved to a shaded site. Hospital (not as we think of it) conditions were terrible. Water was untreated and food was scarce. Disease was rampant. There were some British medical officers trying their best but lack of medical supplies and Turkish indifference for the fate of the ordinary soldier defeated their best efforts. The Turkish wounded and sick were treated in a not dissimilar fashion. The British losses were reduced by exceptional efforts of the local American Consul, Brissell, who did his best to get food, money and clothes to them.

Those sick left in the city continued to die and eventually the Turks agreed to further exchanges. But this was delayed and it wasn't until early August 1916 that some men were selected. Even when they got down to the boat there was a cruel last minute change of plan and some 50 sick were sent back to town , no doubt to die in squalor. The remainder were shipped to the British lines and ended up in Basra before being sent on to India.

 

 Percy was one of these 'fortunate' few. His subsequent death in 1918 in India may have been directly or indirectly due to his experience under siege or in captivity. In his weakened state he would have been vulnerable. Influenza swept through in 1918 and perhaps he fell victim like so many others ?

 

Of over 170 men of the 1/4th Hants who endured the 5 month Siege, only about 50 survived their subsequent captivity.

 

Charlie

PS:

There is an account of the' Wanderings of the 1/4th Hants' by HV Wheeler of the same battalion. He completed the march to Baghdad but could go no further and was left behind when his comraes were forced onward to Turkey. He was in the same group of men as Percy who were exchanged in August 1916. There should be a copy in Winchester Central Library and it will give you further background.

 

Recommended reading:

The Siege, by Russell Braddon,

Kut 1916, by Patrick Crowley.

 

Maureene has given you the link to fibis that has all sorts of further references.

 

 

Edited 13 November , 2018 by charlie962

[Andrea Bishop]

Hi Charlie,

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this research into Percy's experience. It made me very sad to read about how awful it was for all of those soldiers, but I'm so glad I now know more about him and hope to get to Winchester library soon. 

Many thanks to Maureene too. 

Andrea

 

 

[seaJane]

Andrea,

 

I concur with the recommendation of those two books - and E.O. Mousley's 'Secrets of a Kuttite' is a contemporary account worth reading. I have a modern reprint.

 

This is the poem that Rudyard Kipling wrote when news from Mesopotamia finally came back to Britain:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/57430/mesopotamia-56d23af3008a7

[Andrea Bishop]

Thank you for the book recommendation. Like a lot of people, I had no idea about the battle at Kut and the poem sums up the sadness and anger a lot of people must have felt. I hope my great aunt and great uncle never knew how Percy suffered. 

 

Andrea

 

[charlie962]

15 hours ago, seaJane said:

the poem that Rudyard Kipling wrote

Thanks for that link Sj

I cannot think why I've not registered this before. Clearly related to the Mesopotamian Parliamentary Commission report in 1917 into the mismanagement of the initial campaign. The report (see Maureene's links) makes for distressing reading and includes the Vincent Bingley report on medical affairs.

Kipling's verse fits so well.

 

 

15 hours ago, Andrea Bishop said:

I hope my great aunt and great uncle never knew how Percy suffered.

They would inevitably have been informed of his capture and subsequent release but unless he wrote to them they would have remained ignorant until the Commission reported in 1917. It was all rather hushed up by India in 1916.

 

Note that for the 1/4th Hants almost half the survivors were men who had been exchanged. So despite the gravity of their illness most of the 'exchanged' pulled through.  But not Percy, sadly. There is probably a death certificate that will give cause of death but I couldn't readily see a reference.

 

Charlie

[seaJane]

7 hours ago, charlie962 said:

917 into the mismanagement of the initial campaign. The report (see Maureene's links) makes for distressing reading

It does indeed. I've read almost everything that can be got hold of about Kut, having become hooked, as one does, on the story of the (sole?) RN officer besieged, Sub-Lt Lionel Tudway of HMS SUMANA - gets a few mentions in Mousley's memoir and a couple of others.