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Remembered Today:

Wiltshire men in Irish Regiments


chasver

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I am researching the men from Malmesbury who died in the Great War. Whilst many of them joined our county regiment many others served in Irish Regiments.

I have recently been given brief details of the Service Record of Richard Exton. On 12 September 1914 he enlisted at Devizes in the Wiltshire Regt, No. 13263. However on 17 September he was transferred to the Royal Munster Fusiliers, was posted to 6th (Service) Battalion, Regimental No 1253 and later was killed in Gallipoli on 15 August 1915.

Other men were transferred to the same RMF battalion, 6th & 7th Leinsters and 6th Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Any ideas how & why these men were directed to go to Ireland and join these 'foreign' units?

Has anyone any information or photos of casualties from Malmesbury?

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Chasver,

Welcome to the Forum.

What you have to remember is at the time of the Great War, there was no Northern or Southern Ireland. Ireland at that time would have 'come under' the UK, Norhern Ireland wasn't created until 1921. Service in Ireland counted as Home service and the Regiments were also considered the same.

The majority of lads who went to Irish Regiments would have probably been conscripts when it was introduced in January 1916. They would have been sent wherever they were needed, regardless of their 'local' regiments.

However, many men volunteered for these Regiments, for one reason or another

A few of 'my' lads served with the Irish Regiments.

Hope this answers your question a little

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Hi Chasver

My Gt Uncle falls into this category. He lived in Westbury and enlisted in Trowbridge. He was in the Wiltshire Regt but transferred to 7th Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers. He died of wounds received at Suvla on 2/9/1915 so doesn't fall into the conscripts category. He had been a member of the a Wiltshire territorial battallion but had been discharged in 1911 as unfit for service, so I presume he was a volunteer.

One factor which may have influenced his transfer to an Irish Regeiment may have been that he was born in Ireland, whilst his father was serving there as a regular in the Northumberland Fusiliers.

Another theory I have heard is that the Irish Regiments failed to get as many volunteers as other regiments due to the civil unrest and anti-British feelings in Ireland at the time so had to 'pinch' volunteers from other regiments.

I too await afurther information on this topic.

Peter

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I am researching the men from Malmesbury who died in the Great War. Whilst many of them joined our county regiment many others served in Irish Regiments.

I have recently been given brief details of the Service Record of Richard Exton. On 12 September 1914 he enlisted at Devizes in the Wiltshire Regt, No. 13263. However on 17 September he was transferred to the Royal Munster Fusiliers, was posted to 6th (Service) Battalion, Regimental No 1253 and later was killed in Gallipoli on 15 August 1915.

Other men were transferred to the same RMF battalion, 6th & 7th Leinsters and 6th Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Any ideas how & why these men were directed to go to Ireland and join these 'foreign' units?

Has anyone any information or photos of casualties from Malmesbury?

Hello Chasver,

I think that the answer to your question lies in the fact that prior to the 10th Irish Div going to Gallipoli they had to form Pioneer Bns draining the various Irish Regts of manpower. So the shortage was made up with the next available recently trained recruits.

There was no shortage of volunteers from Ireland at this point in time.

Has anybody else got a different angle on this??

Regards,

C.T.

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Hello Chasver,

I think that the answer to your question lies in the fact that prior to the 10th Irish Div going to Gallipoli they had to form Pioneer Bns draining the various Irish Regts of manpower. So the shortage was made up with the next available recently trained recruits.

There was no shortage of volunteers from Ireland at this point in time.

Has anybody else got a different angle on this??

Regards,

C.T.

Thanks to all but the theories so far are wrong. I thought that these transfers must have been pre Gallipoli but it was SEPTEMBER 1914 and the guys were sent to Ireland - Curragh I think. More thoughts please!!

Charles Vernon

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Hello Chasver and welcome to the Forum,

All the battalions you have listed (with the exception of the 7th Leinsters) were battalions of the 10th (Irish) Division. Some battalions in the Division were slow to come up to strength in September 1914 and a number of English recruits were transferred to these battalions to make up the numbers. To quote from Bryan Cooper's The Tenth (Irish) Division at Gallipoli:

"Except among old soldiers and in Belfast, recruiting in Ireland in August 1914 was not as satisfactory as it was in England and in consequence, Lord Kitchener decided early in September to transfer a number of recruits for whom no room could be found in English regiments to fill up the ranks of the 10th Division".

The 10th Division fought at Gallipoli, Salonika and Palestine, though later in the war many of the Irish battalions were sent to the Western Front.

There was no conscription in Ireland for political reasons.

I'll have a look in Ireland's Memorial Recordsfor Wiltshire men killed while serving in Irish Regiments.

Regards,

Liam.

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Hello All,

There are 127 Wiltshire men listed in Ireland's Memorial Records; Nine are listed as being from Malmesbury, including Richard Exton. It's interesting to note that all bar one of the nine were killed at Gallipoli.

Chasver, if you would like the list send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it on.

Regards,

Liam.

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Liam

Two of my Purton lads will be part of the list

2880 Private HERBET STANLEY WOOLFORD.

2nd Battalion, Royal Munster Fusiliers (Formerly 12868 Wiltshire Regiment).

Enlisted in Swindon. Killed in action aged 23 on the 4th October 1918.

Son of Alfred and Catherine of Widham.

Buried in TEMPLEUX-LE-GUERARD BRITISH CEMETERY, Grave Reference

I. H. 25.

15230 Private GEORGE ARTHUR PAGINTON.

7th Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

Enlisted in Swindon. Killed in action aged 28 on the 16th August 1915.

Son of George & Louisa Paginton, of Pavenhill.

George has no known grave. Remembered on HELLES MEMORIAL, Panel 190 to 196.

Not had chance to dig to deep so far on these lads

Regards

bob

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Morning all

This has sent me of on a Tangent but digging around my pile of research material

1079 Private ALFRED MATTHEWS (Born Purton).

2nd Battalion, Leinster Regiment (Formally 13467 Wiltshire Regiment)

Enlisted in Swindon. Died of wounds received aged 22 on 21st October 1918.

Son of Mr. A. W. and Mrs. E. J. Matthews, of Marston Meysey, Cricklade, Wilts.

Buried in DADIZEELE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY I B 29

again not had chance to research further & 2 Irish connected survivors

Royal Irish regiment B Plummer.

Royal Dublin Fusiliers A G Harris (Wilts R.E).

If anyone can assist with any information further i would be gratefull.

Regards

Bob

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Hello Chasver and welcome to the Forum,

All the battalions you have listed (with the exception of the 7th Leinsters) were battalions of the 10th (Irish) Division. Some battalions in the Division were slow to come up to strength in September 1914 and a number of English recruits were transferred to these battalions to make up the numbers. To quote from Bryan Cooper's The Tenth (Irish) Division at Gallipoli:

"Except among old soldiers and in Belfast, recruiting in Ireland in August 1914 was not as satisfactory as it was in England and in consequence, Lord Kitchener decided early in September to transfer a number of recruits for whom no room could be found in English regiments to fill up the ranks of the 10th Division".

The 10th Division fought at Gallipoli, Salonika and Palestine, though later in the war many of the Irish battalions were sent to the Western Front.

There was no conscription in Ireland for political reasons.

I'll have a look in Ireland's Memorial Recordsfor Wiltshire men killed while serving in Irish Regiments.

Regards,

Liam.

Thanks for the info. Using Ancestry's new online burnt records I've found a Malmesbury man Walter George Curis. His enlistment form does not show any involvement with the Wilts. It's a Short Service enlistment into 7th Leinsters dated 30 October 1914 (No 1934). Maybe after the confusion in September they just sent volunteers straight from Devizes to Ireland (Birr for 7 Leinsters) without enlisting them first. He survived Gallipoli but was shot in Greece, being evacuated to Blighty. He died in Malmesbury Red Cross Hospital in October 1918 and is buried here.

What do you think?

Chas

Must have been having a bad day. 7th of course did not go to Gallipoli & Salonika but to France.

Chas

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  • 1 year later...
I am researching the men from Malmesbury who died in the Great War. Whilst many of them joined our county regiment many others served in Irish Regiments.

I have recently been given brief details of the Service Record of Richard Exton. On 12 September 1914 he enlisted at Devizes in the Wiltshire Regt, No. 13263. However on 17 September he was transferred to the Royal Munster Fusiliers, was posted to 6th (Service) Battalion, Regimental No 1253 and later was killed in Gallipoli on 15 August 1915.

Other men were transferred to the same RMF battalion, 6th & 7th Leinsters and 6th Royal Dublin Fusiliers. Any ideas how & why these men were directed to go to Ireland and join these 'foreign' units?

Has anyone any information or photos of casualties from Malmesbury?

SDGW data has 183 ex-Wiltshires who ended up serving with Irish regiments - largest patterns are

RDF x 67 (23 6th Bn and 24 7th Bn)

Leinsters x 62 (6th Bn 30 and 2nd Bn x 27 - probably ex-6th) and

RMF x 49 (31 with 6th Bn).

This confirms the 'topping up' of 4 understrength 10th Irish Division battalions with (presumably) excess Wiltshire recruits

(others example; KOYLI recruits filling up 10 Div's 7th RMF)

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Hermon William Tozer (57318) was born in Bedminster, and had no Irish connection, and joined the 5th (S) Battn Connaught Rangers, who were mobilised at Basingstoke Hampshire for active service in Gallipoli. So your man more than likely did not go to Ireland to join a Irish Regiment.

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  • 5 years later...

Hi all, Wootton Bassett also remembers a Wiltshire Regiment man who served with the 6th Munsters - Jesse Lawrence. He died on 16th August 1915. I haven't been able to find a reference as to which Wiltshire Regiment he was initially allocated to, although he has a service number. Sadly his service record did not survive, so I know very little about his service history, but I do know that he enlisted in September 1914 which fits with your findings to date. Thanks for all the info!


Just found this story online which confirms everything we suppose!


http://www.royalmunsterfusiliers.org/b4croad.htm

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This post gives an informed view regarding Irish recruitment to the infantry:

 

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Thousands of Englishmen from Line Infantry County Regiments served in Irish battalions simply because Irish recruiting could not sustain the number of battalions raised. All Regiments from all parts of the Country were short of men in late 1915 but the fact that Ireland was exempted from conscription meant that the recruiting problems there were compounded. The challenges in Ireland started from the beginning with slow recruiting. The 10th, and 16th Irish Divisions both had large drafts of Englishmen to make up numbers from the start.

It is possible to see the hard evidence in the fatal casualty data. I have a spreadsheet which covers every man who died while serving in an Irish battalion in the Great war. one of the columns is 'former Battalion'. Just about every English Line infantry Regiment is represented by at least 50 men who served and were later transferred to and died serving with an Irish Battalion.

Some 182 men who initially enlisted with the Wiltshire Regiment died serving in an Irish Battalion. Assuming around 20% of all infantrymen died, this might imply at least around 900 or nearly a whole battalion's worth of Moonrakers fought in Irish Battalions.

Men who enlisted in the London Regiment and subsequently died in Irish Battalions runs to 476. This does not include the London Irish. Implicitly this means around 2380 London Regt men were transferred to Irish battalions.

The list is so long it is probably easier to write a list of English Regiments that didn't provide large drafts to Irish Battalions. I stopped counting after 40 Regiments. It is difficult to find English regiments with less than 50 men dying while serving with Irish Regiments and at a rough estimate (ex the Londons) I would say around 80, or scaling this up assuming 20% casualties, around 400 men per English Line Infantry Regiment. The data is rather compelling evidence of the extent to which Irish battalions were numerically shored-up by Englishmen through the war.. (there were very few Scots or Welshmen).

They fall into two broad categories: men transferred in 1914-15 and men transferred in 1917. I understand the 1914-15 dynamics (Irishmen were not volunteering in sufficient numbers) but the 1917 dynamic is worth exploring. My guess (based on rather a large amount of research in related areas) is that the political sponsors of the Irish formations were fighting a rearguard action trying to prevent the inevitable disbandment of numerically weak Irish battalions. If Irish formations shrivelled on the vine while Scottish and Welsh formations retained their national identities, the post-war political implications might have been dire; English politiians pointing the finger and accusing the Irish of not pulling their weight - a view shared by one GOC of the 16th Irish Div no less. The short-term (1917) solution was to fill weak Irish battalions with English conscripts. This backfired as English politicians complained in Parliament that English conscripts were filling Irish battalions when there was no conscription in Ireland. Inevitably, Irish battalions were disbanded or amalgamated. It is a highly emotive subject which is why the hard data is such a necessary anchor and reality check.

This should not detract from the massive contribution made by the Irish during the war. It simply shows that the 'Irish' formations' national identities were not quite what they appeared to be.

MG

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  • 8 months later...
Guest suziejbishop

Richard Exton was my great grandfather, my nan was 2 when he died, and recently passed away aged 102. I don't think they ever knew exactly what happened to him, but his wife received a few reports saying he had been injured by a shell, and subsequently died. If at all possible I'd love to see service records - are these available on line? Picture of Cpl Exton posted on everymanremembered.

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... If at all possible I'd love to see service records - are these available on line ...

Possibly. Hi Suzie, and welcome to the Forum.

See here

Ancestry and/or Findmypast MAY be available at your local library.

Moonraker

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Suzie,

Since my original post I have found out a great deal more about Wiltshire men sent to Ireland. Sadly your great grandfather's service record has not survived. He was posted as missing and his fate was not discovered for nearly 2 years (on the Malmesbury Abbey memorial the names are in date order and his is amongst 1918 deaths). The Army Register of Personal Effects (available on Ancestry) puts his date of death as "15-8-15 on or since death presumed".

Charles

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Hi suziejbishop,

Welcome to the Forum.

Sorry if this repeats some of the info already posted, but I started yesterday evening and have only just got back to it.

The service records that survived the blitz in WW2 are available on both the Ancestry and Findmypast websites. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be one for 1253 Exton 6/RMF. There might be something in the Irish archives - I'm not familiar with those records, but hopefully Forum Pals that are will pick up on your post and confirm, or otherwise.

There are however some records available to cobble together a broad (and in some parts inferred) record of his service. The size of his War Gratuity payment shown in his Soldiers' Effects record indicates that he had 12, or less months, "eligible service" when he was presumed to have died "on or since" 15th August 1915. In theory then as the qualifying period was from the start of the war, he might have been already serving pre war, or was an early enlistment.

However, his Soldiers Died in the Great War record shows that before he joined the RMF he was number 13263 with the Wiltshire Regiment, and he enlisted in Devizes. That number though would appear not to have been issued pre war - see here. As the Wiltshire Regiment is not mentioned on his British War and Victory Medals Roll record it would appear that he didn't serve in active theatre with that regiment. This seems to be confirmed by his 1914/15 Star Roll record which shows that he first went abroad with the RMF, and disembarked on 7th August 1915.

Taking the first few near numbers for surviving service records with Wiltshire numbers 132** shows:

13204 Andrews (from London) attested at Fulham on 4.9.14 and joined at Tidworth on 9.9.14 - discharged unfit 12.12.14

13249 Brand (from London) attested in London on 7.9.14 and joined at Devizes on 7.9.14 - transferred to the Leinster Regiment 18.9.14

13263 Exton ?? (Enlisted at Devizes per SDGW record above)

13289 Bundy (from Wiltshire) attested at Devizes on 10.9.14 and joined at Devizes on 11.9.14 - posted to the RMF 17.9.14

13294 Baker (from London) attested at Fulham on 2.9.14 and joined at Tidworth on 9.9.14 discharged unfit 12.12.14

Looking at his 1253 RMF number, it's a bit frustrating as there are a couple of "near" men whose records show that they were born in Wiltshire, joined the Wiltshire Regiment in early September 1917, and were transferred to the RMF, but the date of transfer isn't shown. The nearest man I did find is 1266 Norris (from Wiltshire) who joined the Wiltshire Regiment on 7.9.14, and was transferred to the RMF on 17.9.14.

It seems possible then that Richard joined the Wiltshire Regiment in early September 1914, but was transferred to the RMF a few days later.

The war diary for the 6/RMF is available on Ancestry, but unfortunately it starts the day after Richard was presumed dead. Hopefully another forum member who knows the regimental history will be able to recommend another reference source.

A potted history of the Battalion is shown on the LLT.

Good luck with your research.

Regards

Chris

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As mentioned earlier on the thread and the linked thread, English county regiments provided very large drafts for the 10th Irish Div from the outset. He was a Kitchener recruit and he (along with hundreds of others) was diverted to the under strength Irish battalions of the 10th (Irish) Div.

He was in familiar company. Below are just a few of the 169 Wiltshiremen who died while serving in Irish Regiments. The list is sorted by their prior Wilts regt numbers. You subject is highlighted in red. If we assume roughly 20% of infantrymen died, this would imply around 850 Wiltshire Regt recruits were diverted. You will see below that they ended up in a number of Irish regiments.

Some authors would have us believe these men were descendents of Irish immigrants. This is not the case. Wiltshire incidentally had one of the lowest Irish immigrant populations in Britain. MG

post-55873-0-05250900-1461326281_thumb.j

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Chris, Martin & Suzie,

My research into Malmesbury men who went to Ireland with further details of other Wiltshire men is set out below:

Didn't realise the forum doesn't like Word tables - format below is Name; Irish unit; Wilts No (if known); Irish number; Remarks

Malmesbury men in Irish Regiments

Cpl. James Anderson, 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers,3129,South Wales Borderers

Pte. Daniel Bishop,6 Royal Munster Fusiliers, 2898, KIA 7/8/15

Pte. Frank T. Bishop 6 Leinster Regiment (Wilts No 13181),970 or 1031,Royal Irish 21372

Pte. Herbert Blackford 6 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 14342

Pte. Charles Bond 6 Leinster Regiment Maybe discharged??

Pte. Cyril T. Bond 6 Royal Dublin Fusiliers (Wilts 13000) 14341 KIA 3/10/16

Pte. Frederick J. Burgess 6 Leinster Regiment 1027 Connaught Rangers 15302

Pte. John Bond Royal Dublin Fusiliers 17504? Maybe discharged??

Pte James Walter Carey 6 Leinster Regiment 982, Gloucesters 41006

Pte. Walter J. Clark 6 Royal Dublin Fusiliers 14340, Royal Engineers 367545

Pte. Ernest W. Curtis 6 Leinster Regiment (Wilts 13180) 990 KIA 10/1/17 7 Bn.

Pte. Walter G. Curtis 7 Leinster Regiment 1934 DOW 10/10/18

L/Cpl. Jack Edwards 6 Royal Dublin Fusiliers Wounded DSCF0760

Cpl. Richard Exton 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers (Wilts 13263) 1253 MIA 15/8/15

Pte Henry Goodfield 6 Leinster Regiment 1028, SWB lost 2 fingers DSCF1157

Cpl Harry Jefferies 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 6/1261, Class Z

Pte. Frank E. King 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 2928, Wounded Serbia DSCF0957

Pte. Samuel E. Lewis 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 3179, Died 6/12/18

Pte. Fred Liddington 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers (Wilts 13175) 6/2932, MGC 48670

Sgt. G. Henry Paul 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers (Wilts 13279) 3117, KIA 15/8/15

Pte. Frederick W. Pike 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 3205

Pte. Wilfred G. Pike 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 3078

Pte. Charles Pinnell 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 2961, MGC 31404 Liddington’s best man

L/Cpl. Richard Price 7 Royal Dublin Fusiliers (Wilts 619) 14966, DOW 10/9/15

Sgt Reginald Saunders MM 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 545, resident Corston

Pte. Reginald Sawyer 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 3101,resident Brokenborough

Sgt. Sidney Selby 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 6/3118, Devons

Pte. William J. Selby 6 Leinster Regiment (Wilts 13882) 1136, MIA 10/8/15

Pte. E. Ernest Thornbury 6 Royal Munster Fusiliers 3224, DOW 20/8/15

All of these names are noted in the town’s Roll of Honour published early in 1915. DSCF numbers relate to press cuttings. These men volunteered following a meeting in Malmesbury on 8 September, except for Walter Curtis who joined in London but was posted to a different battalion than his brother. Corston & Brokenborough are local villages.

Wiltshire Men in Irish Regiments

Lord Kitchener, newly appointed Secretary of State for War, issued an appeal on 6 August 1914 for 100,000 men aged between 19 and 31 to volunteer to join the Army. These were to be organised into six Divisions, one for each of the Command Districts. Recruits flooded in but in Ireland recruiting for the Tenth (Irish) Division was not going as well as in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Ulster Unionists wanted assurances that Home Rule would be shelved for the duration of the war whilst John Redmond, the Irish Nationalists’ leader, wanted the Home Rule Bill passed. The Act received royal assent on 18th September and Redmond urged his supporters to enlist two days later. However Kitchener had already taken steps to remedy the situation by directing Regiments in England whose depots had too many volunteers to send the surplus to Ireland.

The Wiltshire Regiment at Devizes was one of those so affected. On Friday 18 September the North Wilts Herald reported;

The rush of recruits to the Barracks at Devizes has now diminished, as the 5th and 6th Battalions are full, and also the Reserve Battalion of the 3rd Wilts. There are now some 1,600 men at the Barracks, of whom 900 are billeted in the town. It is expected that the major portion of these will be moved away to Ireland or Scotland, leaving 500 to act as a training battalion.

On 13 November the same paper reported a meeting of Malmesbury Town Council;

Mr. Farrant re-called the recruiting meeting held when 30 young men joined. They were asked to join Lord Kitchener’s Army, and naturally wished to belong to the Wiltshires. Instead, however, they were sent to the Royal Munster Fusiliers. He thought it a pity they were not with the Wiltshires instead of training in the Curragh. Wiltshire should find its own men and Ireland should do the same (hear, hear).

The meeting referred to was held on the evening of 8th September when so many people turned up it had to be held in the open at Cross Hayes rather than in the old Drill Hall. 51 young men volunteered and were attested but 12 of those wanted to serve with the town’s Territorial Force Ammunition Column unit based at Amesbury.

It was also reported that 1,000 men from Wiltshire had been sent to Ireland. A quick examination of ‘Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919’ which often records a soldier’s Service Number from a previous regiment, numbers between 12424 and 13279 have been found for soldiers who originally enlisted in the Wiltshire Regiment but were transferred to Irish regiments.

Sources;

Call to Arms, Charles Messenger, 2005, pages 103-105

The Tenth (Irish) Division in Gallipoli, Bryan Cooper, 1917, pages 12-13

I have found men who passed the medical in Devizes but were rejected in Ireland so this might have been the fate of Charles & John Bond who I have been unable to confirm as being attested into an Irish regiment despite being reported locally to have done so.

Charles

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One aspect I have never established is if these men volunteered to be posted to Irish regiments or whether they were simply sent against their will. The terms of engagement for Kitchener recruits are unclear to me. I don't fully understand if they Army in 1914 had the legal authority to send men to wherever they were required. Some anecdotal evidence suggests some Englishmen were rather miffed to end up in an Irish regiment, however I have not yet seen any broader evidence to support this. If anyone has any info that could clear this up I would be a grateful recipient. MG

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... The terms of engagement for Kitchener recruits are unclear to me. I don't fully understand if the Army in 1914 had the legal authority to send men to wherever they were required. .... MG

Men enlisted under the Kitchener scheme, or subsequent schemes, including conscription, were enlisted for "General Service", i.e. they could be sent to any unit which required reinforcements.

Ron

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Men enlisted under the Kitchener scheme, or subsequent schemes, including conscription, were enlisted for "General Service", i.e. they could be sent to any unit which required reinforcements.

Ron

Did this apply to locally raised battalions (Pals battalions). My understanding is that these chaps enlisted under the conditions that they would serve together. When their battalions were transferred to the War Office, what happened? Did they all have to sign up under the Kitchener scheme or had they done that already? If the latter, there seems to be diametrically opposing ideas about their terms of service. Hence my question. MG

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