Did Chaplains have to do training ?

[centurion]

Can you post the photo centurion ?

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Thanks Centurian, a great photo. So often when I see photos of people who served in the Great War, I'm struck by how "ordinary" and by that suppose I mean 'gentle' they look. I'm not just talking about padres but front line troops as well. They obviously had a very strong inner core.

Harry

[liverpool annie]

I wonder if you have a photograph of my Chaplain ? ........ I'm envious .... Harry got one !!

[centurion]

I wonder if you have a photograph of my Chaplain ? ........ I'm envious .... Harry got one !!

I don't think you've posted his name?

[liverpool annie]

I was just teasing !! .... but this was him .... plus I have 2 more ...... !! all Franciscan priests

Johnston (Rev), Arthur

Corps Regiment No Rank

Cavalry Field Ambulance Army Chaplain's Department 4th Class

Fr Hubert Furlong and Fr Jerome Walsh

Annie

[Ron Clifton]

In reply to an earlier post on where chaplains were employed:

By the latter part of the war, there were 17 chaplains with each division, i.e. four for each infantry brigade and five for divisional troops. Of the four per brigade, one was C of E, one RC, one Nonconformist (usually Presbyterian) and one "of the denomination to which the majority of the men belonged". Four chaplains to a four-battalion brigade meant that one could spend most of his time with each battalion, but they were not strictly battalion chaplains as such.

A hospital, or a group of three Casualty Clearing Stations, had three chaplains: one C of E, one RC and one Nonconformist.

Jewish chaplains were also appointed, but on a more informal basis.

And as someone else remarked, chaplains were required by the Geneva Convention to be non-combatants and would not have carried weapons.

They were commissioned as Chaplains 1st. 2nd, 3rd or 4th Class (equivalent to Col, Lt-Col, Major and Capt) and had officer status but were not strictly officers. They wore uniform to protect them from being shot as spies if they were captured.

Ron

[Beau Geste]

Thank you Ron. There was a lot there that I didn't know. That explains how TB Hardy was able to remain in the front line when "his" battalion, the 7th Lincolns were "rested".

Harry

[Guest AWOL]

Hello. The few accounts that I have come across suggest that the clergyman was often given three or four days notice before moving on. There are also accounts where the parishioners would have a 'whip round' before sending their priest to war - with some appealing for communion plates and crosses once they had reached the front or camp. The training programme for chaplains sounds interesting.

Regards,

Peter G

[Beau Geste]

Recently, I was reading Capt. Dunn's "The War the Infantry Knew" and in it he mentions "the padre" who got himself killed in an attack by members of the 2nd RWF on a German position simply because he had been insulted during a recent period of home leave. Apparently a young woman had handed him a white feather and it had played on his mind ever since.

According to the author, the padre had ignored the advice of others who felt he would "only get in the way" and went over the top with the raiding party. The suggestion was that he had craved an award which he felt would, in some way, prove that he had made a worthwhile contribution.

It didn't mention if he was armed or not but for the reasons mentioned already, I don't think he would have been.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Rab]

Hi Harry

I've been reading a thesis which stated that Dunn tended to record negative comments about chaplains. In the thesis it was suggested that some chaplains felt that in order to gain the respect of their men, they had to demonstrate courage. This was put as a possible alternative for the chaplain's motives. I would be interested to know whether you agreed that Dunn showed a negative slant towards chaplains.

Regards

Rab

[Beau Geste]

Hello Rab,

My reading of Dunn's book was a few months ago and from memory, all I can say is that I didn't get that message. He probably mentioned more than two padres but that's all I can remember. One of them he spoke about with affection and admiration and the other was a short piece saying he had been killed trying to win a medal for the reason I mentioned.

As an aside though, the comment that the chaplains felt they had to impress the men to win their admiration doesn't surprise me and it's probably true of Dunn as well. If you read anything on The Rev TB Hardy VC he was advised by Studdart-Kennedy that he had to win the respect of the men if he was ever going to achieve anything. What he meant by that was he had to be with them in the front line and beyond and, of course, that is precisely what that wonderful little man did.

I'm sorry. I wish I had the book now but I had to return it to the library !

Perhaps someone else will comment.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Rab]

Cheers, Harry,

It's always helpful to have more than one opinion on something. I'll try to borrow a copy of Dunn's book myself.

Regards,

Rab

[nigelcave]

The whole chaplain business is very complex. For example, the RCs had a far higher establishment than the CofE - this mainly related to the fact that they had sacraments like the eucharist which were administered far more often than was usual in the CofE and also had the reserved sacrament (a matter which became a huge matter of controversy amongst the CofE during the war, by the way). On top of that, they had Extreme Unction, popularly known as Last Rites and now the Sacrament of the Sick. The Last Rites could be administered after someone had died, but it should be very soon after the event. Doyle gives a graphic account of trying to find some undamaged flesh to anoint a nmber of Dublin Fusiliers (I think they were) in one case. RC Chaplains were not awarded the VC, according to Fr Charles Doyle SJ, Willie Doyle's brother. Willie had been put up for the VC (posthumously - kia August 1917, no known grave), but in a letter in our archives at Ratcliffe Charles says that Cardinal Bourne had indicated that he did not want RC Chaplains getting the VC as it was for outstanding courage over and beyond the call of duty; and all RC Chaplains were expected to administer the Last Rites.

The non RC denominations did not have the Last Rites, so this in no way impugns the bravery of these other denominations' clergy. For a short time there was an attempt to keep chaplains away from the front - what were they to do? How official this was has never been very clear to me and it is quite evident that not much notice was taken of it.

The southern Irish Divisions had the distribution more or less reversed - ie in these there were as many RC Chaplains as CofE in a normal division. Presumably some sort of denominational quid pro quo applied to the Scottish and Ulster Division.

Just some random thoughts!

[Beau Geste]

Cheers, Harry,

It's always helpful to have more than one opinion on something. I'll try to borrow a copy of Dunn's book myself.

Regards,

Rab

You're more than welcome Rab. Thank you for your contribution.

I would strongly recommend " It's Only Me " by David Raw, a wonderful little book about a wonderful man: the Rev Theodore Bayley Hardy MC VC (and others) who was the parish priest at a church in a village close to where I live on the Lancashire - Cumbrian Border.

Happy reading

Kind regards,

Harry

[Rab]

[The southern Irish Divisions had the distribution more or less reversed - ie in these there were as many RC Chaplains as CofE in a normal division. Presumably some sort of denominational quid pro quo applied to the Scottish and Ulster Division. ]

As far as I understand, Scotland had a problem with soldiers being wrongly attested. Soldiers from smaller denominations were put down as C of S against their wishes and this had repercussions for chaplaincy. Scottish Baptists wanted Scottish Baptist chaplains for their men, but they needed 500 attestations for each chaplain. As far as I am aware they were never given any Baptist chaplains and I believe the Scottish regiments were dominated by Presbyterian chaplains throughout the war.

Thanks for the book recommendation Harry. I remember seeing a print of Hardy whilst in Germany some years back.

regards

Rab

[Rab]

[And as someone else remarked, chaplains were required by the Geneva Convention to be non-combatants and would not have carried weapons.]

I'm not sure this is correct. Some other modern European (Scandinavian) countries allow their chaplains to be armed. I'm not sure what the position was during the Great War. Could the Geneva Convention have been changed since that time?

Regards

Rab

[nigelcave]

I believe the Scottish regiments were dominated by Presbyterian chaplains throughout the war.

Rab

There were a good number of RC ones as well, not least because a number of regiments (or battalions of regiments, eg the Black Watch) were fairly Catholic. As regards establishment, if memory serves me correctly the allowance was for an RC chaplain for every 750 men or thereabouts but for the CofE it was a chaplain for at least 2,000 if not 2,500.

[Rab]

Thanks for the additional info, Nigel. It's interesting that the numbers required for each chaplain differs between the denominations. Do you know if there were any problems re. improper attestation for the RCs or Episcopalians?

Rab

[nigelcave]

Thanks for the additional info, Nigel. It's interesting that the numbers required for each chaplain differs between the denominations. Do you know if there were any problems re. improper attestation for the RCs or Episcopalians?

Rab

Sorry, Rab, cannot help you on that. My interest lay in the chaplains themselves, mainly because I had access to a lot of archival material of chaplains from a number of religious orders and the Archdiocese of Westminster. I cannot recall any reference to any training in any of the letters, but that does not mean much. A lot of hpnorary chaplains were appointed to assist with troops in the UK, and I am sure they had minimal, f an, training (this applied to WWII and think is still the case for 'officiating' chaplains today). Twenty years or so regular army chaplains attended a sort of Nescafe course (instant officer) which lasted three weeks at Sandhurst: everyone on the course was already a commissioned captain (tho' in the case of a chaplain the 'rank' was/is Chaplain 4th Class. Amongst others on this course there were RAMC, RADC, RAVC, Postal and Courier officers (it had an acronym, something like PCMVDP ...). The purpose was basically to equip them in basic drill, distinguishing the front end of a rifle from the back end and a few fairly leisurely exercises out on Barossa - so my jaundiced memory tells me! In the British army, of course (and the forces in general), the rank was never used and they were (are) always addressed as padre; the Canadians, on the other hand, seem to have used their ranks (see Canon Scott's, The War as I knew it (or similar title) - an excellent read, including a harrowing section when he goes out in the Regina Trench area looking for his son's body, which he spotted when he saw a hand sticking out of the mud with a signet ring on it which he recognised. If memory serves me right he is buried in Adanac cemetery.

[Rab]

Hi Nigel

I gather the PQO course at Sandhurst has changed very little over recent years, although it is more commonly know as the Vicars & Tarts Course. I don't know how or when that name first came about.

Rab

[Audax]

Quote:

I've been reading a thesis which stated that Dunn tended to record negative comments about chaplains.

Rab

Rab,

The name of the Baptist chaplain refered to be Dunn is The Reverend William EVANS -JONES; who was killed in action in France on 8th October 1918. He was only 24 years old. He is buried in Prospect Hill Cemetary, Gouy, Aisne.

I should be interested to know the Title and author of the Thesis you have been reading. Dunn's book was published in 1938 and should therefore I think; be seen as part of the 'Disenchantment' school of War books.

The a great many army chaplains did not receive any training before taking up the appointments. Courses for chaplains were run at Tidworth and Catterick from around 1917 to teach newcomers the basics of life in the army.

Audax

[nigelcave]

I really am not too sure about Dunn. Supposedly, after a succession of rather inadequate CofE (possibly??) chaplains the CO of one RWF battalion 'indented' for an RC Chaplain on the grounds of mass conversion! I think that comes from Graves - so take it with a sizeable pinch of salt....

I really am not too sure about Dunn. Supposedly, after a succession of rather inadequate CofE (possibly??) chaplains the CO of one RWF battalion 'indented' for an RC Chaplain on the grounds of mass conversion! I think that comes from Graves - so take it with a sizeable pinch of salt....

[Audax]

Yes, that bit about change of fiath to RCs comes from Graves 'Goodbye to all that.' I suspect that both Graves and Dunn saw the chaplains as fair game; when they were writing up their memoirs in late 1920s.

[Rab]

"I should be interested to know the Title and author of the Thesis you have been reading."

Audax

The thesis which I was referring to is "Baptist Military Chaplaincy during the Great War, (1914-1918)" by N E Allison. University of Wales 2006. Have you read it?

Thanks for the additional info.

Rab

[Rab]

I've pasted some of N.E. Allison's thesis below which shows a different side to W.E. Jones. I think there are other references to Jones in the thesis, but I thought this was the most relevent part.

Rab

[This conviction about the rightness of the cause was common among the chaplains of the Great War, and W. E. Jones(418), another chaplain, presented this same view eloquently at the Welsh Baptist Assembly of 1917. He commented: “Not all of my fellow students held the same views, but I felt strongly that my allegiance to my country and to the principles of freedom and justice called upon me to volunteer. I did nothing more than follow my personal conviction and my conscience.(419) (page 120)

It is equally plausible to believe that Jones had a desire to demonstrate that the recently recognised Baptist chaplains were as good as any other chaplains. It was also a fundamental belief of the more dynamic chaplains such as Studdart Kennedy and Charteris that soldiers would only give the chaplain a hearing if his ‘courage’ was beyond question. Ieuan Elfryn Jones, a Ph.D. student at the University of Wales, Bangor, has translated letters and articles held in the files of the Baptist Union of Wales which have revealed the high regard in which Jones was held, and because of the controversy surrounding his death it is worth quoting from them in detail. James Evans, the 122 Brigade chaplain and the senior overseeing W. E. Jones, sent a letter to Seren Cymru(480) to be printed. He wrote about hearing of:

"the death of our esteemed colleague and dear brother the Revd E Evans Jones… He was hit in the head, and died soon after, whilst accompanying one of the assault companies of his battalion…The news of his death went like a shock wave through the battalion, as Mr Jones was well known throughout the Division, even though he was mainly in support of one of the Brigades… He was commonly known as the ‘Baby Padre’… not just because he was the youngest one with us, but also because of our love and esteem for him… Mr Jones proved himself to be one of our most faithful, acceptable, and successful chaplains… His greatest achievements were in the sermons during his life out here, not in those in the pulpit, … and his greatest was the one we heard on the morning of Tuesday 8th October outside Villers Outreaux: And the sound was heard from afar."

…His character was very much one of a pleasant, committed and enthusiastic individual … he was a happy and cheerful person … He was fully committed to his studies of the Word. Although relatively inexperienced, he was always grateful for the encouragement and assistance of his colleagues in the difficult work that we have out here. On top of his preaching and pastoral duties towards the ‘boys out here’, he also worked hard to assist them with their welfare needs…

…During the recent battles, he had been responsible for the burial of the dead in his Brigade area. Following the battle outside Gouzancourt, where many of the Welsh Division fell, he organised the clearance of the bodies and the setting up of what he named the ‘Arfon British Cemetery.(481)

This letter revealed a very different chaplain to that portrayed by Dunn. The basic facts agree and maybe he was advised not to go on patrol, but this chaplain was committed passionately to Christ and to his soldiers. The soldiers in return deeply respected their padre as the above letter illustrates. In another letter sent by E. Edmunds to J. Gwili Jenkins, Principal of the North Wales Baptist College, the qualities of W. E. Jones’ character are again promoted. “We were greatly saddened to hear of his loss, as he was an excellent young man, and one of the best workers, that we could have hoped to have with us. His Colonel reported that he went out with one of the units during the assault, and he was killed whilst ministering to the wounded during the battle”.(482) In fact Welsh Baptists seem to have seen him as someone they “had great expectations for in the future.(483)”

No matter how the facts of W. E. Jones’s death are reported and interpreted, this episode, and others like it, demonstrate that Baptist chaplains freely elected to serve at ‘the front’ and share the hardships and dangers of those they were seeking to serve.( Pages 135-137)]