About Anzacs

[Guest Mantus]

Hi, Can You Tell Me Why Anzacs Come And Die In Here (Turkey) ?

I Think This War Is Not Great For You.. Beacuse Here Is Our Country.. And Our Soldiers Destroy Your Soldiers.. This Is Normal..

If Now, Turkish Soldiers Go To Your Country For Kill Peoples, You Can Kill Them..

And if you will come Canakkale this year.. be careful.. because some stupid nazi's can racist attacks to you

[Robert Dunlop]

When Britain declared war, Australia and New Zealand pledged their support and sent their soldiers to fight for the British. The Australians and New Zealanders came to Turkey because they were ordered to go by the British military command, just like the British soldiers. The Anzac soldiers were travelling to Europe and had stopped in Egypt. This is why they were available to be ordered to go to Turkey.

The Turkish soldiers fought extremely well. This was a surprise to the commanders of the invaders. Although many Turkish soldiers were killed, the Turkish army did not give way. Turkey is right to feel very proud of their achievements.

I have a copy of the diary (translated into English) of Lieutenant Mehmed Fasih, who fought in the 47th Regiment, 16th Division, 5th Imperial Ottoman Army. He has written about his experiences at Gallipoli when he was fighting against the Anzacs. It illustrates the bravery and the determination of the Turkish soldiers.

There are not many history books in English that are written by Turkish authors. Do you know of any history books about the Ottoman Army in the First World War that are written in Turkish?

[BottsGreys]

Robert:

Perhaps Mantus is unaware that the Ottomans were allied with the Central Powers?

Chris

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Mantus

Welcome to the forum

Why- thats a big question, the simplest answer is like what as been seid above, that Australia and New Zealand were allies of Britain and Britain was at war with Germany, and Turkey joined the German side, so one way of getting at the Germans was to try and knock out Turkey.

But Why do we humans start wars that kill hundreds of thousands of all nations, I do not know. Most people on this forum are on it to remember their family or country men who fort and died but also to remember the men of other countries like Turkey, may be one day the human race will see that wars are not the best way of sorting out problems.

Mantus I hope you stay with the forum and enlighten us more of the Turkish Army of 1914-18.

Annette

[michaeldr]

"Why Anzacs come here and die in Turkey?"

Mantus, if I were to attempt to answer your very big question then I would begin by reminding both of us [you and myself] that soldiers do not start wars; politicians do. The Turkish soldier and the Anzac, or British, soldier were only doing their job to support their country. If you are looking to blame someone, then blame the politicians.

On this forum you will find that here very little space is devoted to politicians and their schemes. Here we try to study our soldier forefathers, their comrades and those who fought against them, and to better understand and appreciate the sacrifices which they made on our behalf.

The Turkish soldier and the soldiers of my country had only respect for one another. The Turkish people are always represented at any of the Anzac [Gallipoli] Day ceremonies that I have ever been to. Indeed the words of Ataturk more often than not form an integral part of such ceremonies:

"Bu memleketin topraklari ustunde kanlarini doken kahramanlar,

burada bir dost vatanin topragindasiniz,

huzur ve sukun icinde uyuyunuz.

Sizler Mekmetciklerle yanyana, koyun koyunasiniz.

Uzak divarlardan evlatlarini harbe gonderen analar,

gozyaslarinizi dindiriniz, evlatariniz bizim bagrimizdadir,

huzur icindedirler, ve huzur icinde rahat rahat uyuyacaklardir.

Onlar bu toprakta canlarini verdikten sonra artik bizim evlatarimiz ozmuslardir."

Mustafa Kamal Ataturk [1934]

'Canakkle' is a poem written by His Excellency, Mr. Bulent Ecevit, and the following is only a small part at the end, in his own translation of it into English

"Gallipoli now abounds

with gardensful

with nationsful

of burial grounds

a paradise on earth Gallipoli

is a burial under the ground

those who lost their lives in fighting

lie here mingled in friendly compound

'lying side by side'

as 'friends in each other's arms'

they may 'sleep in comfort and peace'

in the land for which they died."

Finally let me say that it has been my own very pleasant experience that sentiments such as these are not mere empty words, but that they are practiced by the great majority of your fellow countrymen. One of my favourite memories of visiting Gallipoli comes back to me when I think of 'Lone Pine.' Our visit there coincided with that of a coach full of Turkish people, one of whom strode proudly towards me with his hand out stretched and greeted me with the simple phrase - "Welcome to MY country!"

Mantus, Welcome to our forum. May we learn as much from you, as you do from us.

With very best regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest Mantus]

Thank you very much friends.. You are very gentle.. I Don't like speak about ottomans.. they can't be our forefather.. i don't know english very well, but i like say something about Turkish army; Turkish Army was Very weak, they have limited guns, cartridges.. some guns was broken.. and very much soldier was ill.. and they use only bayonet when they start great attack..

i think this is scray.. think please.. Turks only have scary.. and britanians have moderns guns oh god.. i only one times go to the canakkale.. and i don't like go again..

if you need info, i know a this web site about wars:

http://www.canakkale.gen.tr/eng/

Turks was attack very much country in history, but this war is only for guard for their country. and this war is bloody war in Turkish history..

"Bu memleketin topraklari ustunde kanlarini doken kahramanlar,

burada bir dost vatanin topragindasiniz,

huzur ve sukun icinde uyuyunuz.

Sizler Mekmetciklerle yanyana, koyun koyunasiniz.

Uzak divarlardan evlatlarini harbe gonderen analar,

gozyaslarinizi dindiriniz, evlatariniz bizim bagrimizdadir,

huzur icindedirler, ve huzur icinde rahat rahat uyuyacaklardir.

Onlar bu toprakta canlarini verdikten sonra artik bizim evlatarimiz ozmuslardir."

Mustafa Kamal Ataturk [1934]

This is right; They are sleeping in a friend country..

[michaeldr]

Mantus,

Thank you very much for your above reply and I hope that if you have anything further to contribute to our discussions, then you will not hesitate to join in and thereby become a regular collaborator in our discussions. Your opinions are valued here.

You have been kind enough to repeat my quotation from the words of Ataturk, and with your permission, I will add an English translation for those of our members who are not familiar with his immortal sentiments

"Those heroes that shed their blood

and lost their lives...

You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country.

Therefore rest in peace.

There is no difference between the Johnnies

And the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side

Here in this country of ours...

You, the mothers,

Who sent their sons from far away countries

Wipe away your tears,

Your sons are now lying in our bosom

And are in peace

After having lost their lives on this land

They have become our sons as well."

Ataturk [1934]

[Bob Coulson]

Thanks for the translation, very moving lines.

Bob.

[ianw]

Mantus,

Yes, Mantus, I think you are right that the Turkish soldiers were poorly equipped and suffering from much illness - illness was common to all the nationalities who fought in Galipoli. All Allied soldiers respected the fighting skills of the Turkish Army

and Attaturk's words are among the the most generous and moving expressed about the Great War. We appreciate the generous spirit of Turkey and appreciate our Dead lay among friends.

Good luck to the Turkish Nation in its role linking West and East and trying to promote peace and understanding.

[christine liava'a]

Mantus,

You may be interested in this speech, by a previous Governor -General of NZ, to a meeting of the Old Boys Association of Wellington College- the main boys' school in Wellington NZ, about a particular old boy ( previous pupil) and the school's connection with Gallipoli

"You’ll all know that in the 23 years he lived in New Zealand, (Bernard)Freyberg had become a champion swimmer. He won both the New Zealand junior title and later the senior. At Gallipoli he had a very different swim. The plan was to create a diversion at the north end of the peninsula, by putting one of Freyberg’s platoons ashore to light flares so that the Turks would think the invading forces were to land there. Freyberg would not allow his men to run those risks and so he did it alone, in the dark, towing a raft, swimming for an hour and a quarter to land, lighting a flare, back into the sea to swim on to light a second and then a third, and then somehow finding his way back. He was away for almost three hours, and swam about two miles in icy cold water: as one of his men wrote at the time, only a superman could have survived. For that exploit, he was awarded the first of his three DSOs. Soon after, his unit was put ashore near Cape Hellas, at the southern end of the peninsula, as part of the British force which suffered casualties of the same enormity as the Anzacs did further north around Anzac Cove, at Lone Pine and up on Chunuk Bair. Freyberg’s battalion was reduced by two thirds and he himself was badly wounded, three times.

It was at Gallipoli that, in a manner of speaking, I caught up with Freyberg. The Turkish President had invited us to pay a State Visit, and it was decided to combine that with the annual Anzac Day commemorations. New Zealand and Australia alternate responsibility for the Dawn Service at Anzac Cove, and this year, it was New Zealand’s turn.

In 1914, the New Zealand Anzac contingent had left home only a little more than two months after war had begun, the largest single fighting force ever to leave this country. With the Australians they were put ashore on the narrow beach now at last known officially as Anzac Cove. One of their immediate objectives was to take the dominant height of Chunuk Bair, the key to the peninsula.

It is only when you see the terrain with your own eyes that you realise what a virtually impossible undertaking it was. Crammed onto the narrow beach, the Anzacs were confronted by high cliffs, mazes of ridges and ravines. They came under murderous fire from the Turkish defenders. 3,100 New Zealanders landed on that first Anzac Day. 1 in 5 was killed before the day was out.

After the initial landings, the campaign became one of brutal trench warfare, with the opposing troops sometimes only yards apart, of hand-to-hand physical combat, of charge and countercharge, always under withering fire. Casualties were horrific. In one overnight attack, the Otago Battalion lost 400 out of 800 men. In another attack, the Auckland Battalion lost 300 men in 20 minutes for a gain of 100 metres. The Turkish defenders suffered equally. In one charge, they lost 2,000 men. By 24 May, the no-man’s land between the two front lines was so carpeted with the dead that an armistice was called so that they could be buried.

The campaign dragged on for eight months, until in December 1915, what was left of the invading force was evacuated. Of the 11,600 New Zealanders who eventually served on Gallipoli, 2,721 died on active service and 4,752 were wounded, many to die later of their wounds. It was a terrible price for a small country to pay - our total population was then only a little over 1 million.

Yet during that time, our sense of national pride and national identity was born. It was much the same for the Australians too, and for the Turks, for their commander, Kemal Ataturk, became the founder of modern Turkey. This sense of shared national pride pervaded all that we did on Anzac Day.

We arrived on the beach at Anzac Cove at about 4.30 in the morning. We had to push our way in the darkness through what seemed an endless crowd, many standing almost shoulder to shoulder, others still asleep, lying among everyone’s feet. There were a few unflattering comments in Australian accents as our guide asked them to let through the Governor-General of New Zealand; but he quickly changed that.

And as soon as the Service began, with a spotlight picking out a Maori warrior, and a piper playing a lament, there was utter silence, a sea of faces all around, the only sound the sound of the waves lapping on the shore. There were between seven and ten thousand people there that morning, mostly New Zealanders and Australians, mostly young. It is a picture that will always stay with me.

There were six more services that day; at the huge Turkish memorial at Cape Hellas, at the British and French memorials; at Ataturk’s own battalion memorial; at Lone Pine, where there was a very large gathering of Australians; and then finally our own on the hilltop of Chunuk Bair.

This is a legendary place. It was the key to the success of the whole campaign. There had been many attempts to take it, all ending in disastrous failure. But at dawn on 8 August 1915 Chunuk Bair was stormed. The men of the Wellington Infantry Battalion, under Colonel William Malone, were the first there. They were reinforced by the Auckland Mounted Rifles, and then replaced by the Otago Infantry Battalion and the Wellington Mounted Rifles.

From where these men were, they would have seen the ultimate objective, the Straits of the Dardanelles, below. But they got no further. For three days, under continuous fire and counter-attack, and running short of water, they clung to this small hilltop, sheltering in pitifully shallow trenches and behind the bodies of fallen comrades. Eventually they were relieved, but at what a cost.

Of the 800 Wellington soldiers, over 730 were killed or wounded. And on the stone plinth in front of the monument, are recorded the names of 852 New Zealand dead who fell there, but who have no known graves. One was just 17 years old. And all this for, really, nothing. The Turks recaptured the summit, and from then on the Allied campaign lost momentum. Four months later, it was all but over.

The Official New Zealand War History says this about Chunuk Bair:

"August 8 was a day of tragedy for New Zealand, but no day in our calendar shines with greater glory." And another historian has written: "If New Zealanders have a day that is uniquely ours, it is 8 August, 1915."

It was impossible to assess how many were at Chunuk Bair on Anzac Day this year, but again there was the same silence as there had been at Anzac Cove, and stillness even when a cold wind and rain came in; accompanied by the feeling I am sure, of ‘who are we to complain or take shelter when those who fought here endured such immeasurably greater hardship’. I was immensely proud to be a New Zealander."

Sir Michael Hardie Boyes 1998

This shows how NZers feel about Gallipoli and Turkey.

[Guest sbecker]

Mate,

The Turkish Army was weak only because of the war in the Balkan's were it had suffered much in the loss of men and equiptment before the Great war began.

It joinned Germany in the Great war to gain the support of Germany and guns and Equiptment they had.

Turkey wasted their man power and what they gainned by senceless operations.

The Caucusses battles and the lost of Turkish life was a major promblem.

But the Turkish soldier was also respected either in the Great War or when my own father fought along side them in Korea in 1951.

I also served along side them in Bosnia with the UN between 1994-96, the one thing I remember is meeting an Australian in the Turkish Army in Bosnia, He had gone home to see family and been conscripted by the Turkish Army (National Service) even when he had Australian citizenship.

S.B