First men in France?

[charlesmessenger]

Grumpy

In response to your PM the first to cross to France were the advanced parties of two ASC supply depots, each of an officer and 13 men, on 7 Aug. One of the officers was Major H O Knox ASC, who has been credited as the first member of the BEF to actually set foot in France. There was no question of any fighting troops crossing the Channel until the three Large Rest Camps at the entry ports had been established, since it was these which would receive units on landing and give them a chance to sort themselves out before proceeding up-country to the BEF’s deployment area. Although the camps had been prepared by the French, the staffs to run them did not arrive until 10 August, after an overnight Channel crossing.

The individuals mentioned in this thread as crossing early were certainly not advanced parties of infantry battalions. They were most likely extra regimentally employed, probably with the Inspector General of Communications organisation, which was responsible for logistics. Elements of this would have certainly arrived early.

I think the source at Kew which would give you the best steer are the railway timetables for the moving of the BEF to the ports of embarkation. These are under WO 33/665.

Charles M

[chasver]

I'm with Greyhound on this one. No. 1 Depot Unit of Supply ASC seems to be the first unit to arrived in France - not sure how many officers but SQMS Sanderson, S.Sgt Baker, Cpl Lovelace, Ptes Lamb, Pamplin (my wife's Grandad), Whelan & Dvr Beard all on the same medal roll and entitled to the 1914 clasp (was Rouen within gunshot of the Germans?????).

Chas

[SPotter]

Grumpy,

I have confirmed the dates only in as much that the MICs correlate with the medal roll, but one would expect that anyway.

I have read the War Diary for the appropriate period, and whilst there are several recorded instances of movements of men; sent to conduct reservists from the Depot, to lay up the Colours in Sherborne Abbey, to form the first re-enforcement and also as a nucleus for the 'New Army', nothing is mentioned of anyone proceeding overseas.

Regards

Steve

[Greyhound]

I'm with Greyhound on this one. No. 1 Depot Unit of Supply ASC seems to be the first unit to arrived in France - not sure how many officers but SQMS Sanderson, S.Sgt Baker, Cpl Lovelace, Ptes Lamb, Pamplin (my wife's Grandad), Whelan & Dvr Beard all on the same medal roll and entitled to the 1914 clasp (was Rouen within gunshot of the Germans?????).

Small world, Chas! Does your wife have any photos?

Thanks for that, I didn't even know his Depot was at Rouen (did ask on here once, but no one could enlighten me.) I had assumed he wouldn't qualify for the clasp - it's not mentioned on the MIC either - so that's another surprise.

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks to Charles and all the recent contributors ..... this is a fascinating subject. I will be at Kew late Nov. early Dec and will pursue the ASC medal roll and the railway timetables and come back in due course. Meanwhile more on Pte Pamplin ASC would be wonderful.

[Greyhound]

No date on this photo, unfortunately. Jim Sanderson is seated second from right.

[Muerrisch]

Thats superb ...... the relaxed poses and the casual informality whereby the ranks are not segregated, Officers and SNCOs seated, junior ranks standing, suggests a break from labours. Could this, could this just be, the first men in France? The hard hat tops and the GC badges on some soldiers suggest regulars .... I just wonder! Another clue might be what I take to be chevrons lower cuff soldier seated second from left ...... these, except from Drum majors and the like, disappeared very early in the war.

Please, a close-up to show his chevrons, and also each of the sergeants?

One other thing: I will draw Joe Sweeney's attention: he, with his knowledge of SD, might help to date the picture.

[charlesmessenger]

Grumpy

Some of them might have been the first in France, but the officer is a subaltern and, apart from Major Knox (see my earlier post), the other officer in the first party to land was Capt G E Terry ASC.

Charles <

[Muerrisch]

Yes, Charles, I have just blown up the picture and the officer is indeed a lieutenant.

The ASC seem heavily into smoking pipes : my maternal GPa was ASC and his group photograph shows him and several colleagues gripping their pipes.

That and woodbines and 2 pints a day kept him hale and hearty until age 96.

[Greyhound]

Here it is a bit bigger, via photobucket. Wonder if Mrs Chas's Grandad is there?

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks. This makes the photo pre-May 1915 if Army Orders were obeyed: the QMS 4 chevrons died the death then.

Joe's opinion will be interesting.

[Joe Sweeney]

There is actually very little in this photo to date.

There is no overtly late or mid war uniforming.

Everything looks 1914ish or immediately before.

Look at all the taches!!! or unshaven upper lips (an indication of earlier!)

Sorry I could not be more conclusive.

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

Joe, thank you: I believe 1914 ..... the group is more relaxed than the usual, and look as if they have had a hard days night!

The cap badges [the few there are] look ASC.

I suspect we may have a very early party, perhaps even pre-11th August 1914.

[chasver]

Many thanks to Charles and all the recent contributors ..... this is a fascinating subject. I will be at Kew late Nov. early Dec and will pursue the ASC medal roll and the railway timetables and come back in due course. Meanwhile more on Pte Pamplin ASC would be wonderful.

Sorry for the delayed reply;

Unfortunately his WW1 papers were lost but as he served in WW2 a summary of his prior service was copied in manuscript on to the new file by an officer!

Service Record William Vero Pamplin

11/7/1911 Joined ASC Aldershot, Service No S/30017

14/3/1913 Departed for Egypt

20/2/1914 Returned home

9/8/1914 Departed for BEF 1st Depot Unit of Supply

25/5/1915 Promoted L/Cpl

5/3/1917 Promoted Corporal

17/8/1918 MSM Gazetted (A/S/Sgt) 2nd Line of Communication Supply Column

2/8/1918 returned home

Post war served in Ireland, Bulford and Egypt, had trouble passing his Certificate of Education for promotion to Sergeant.

10/7/1932 Discharged (Sgt)

He re-enlisted on 19/12/1939, quickly rising through the ranks becoming WO1 SSM in August 1942. He served in I Coy, later 29 Pers Sect in Liverpool. 6/2/1945 he was discharged ‘there being no Army employment in his rank suitable to his age and category’.

The two units he is known to have served with during WW1 are a bit of a mystery – Michael Young in his researches for Army Service Corps 1902-1918 could find out nothing more than their titles and confirmation that they existed. I did post a query on the Forum a couple of years ago but got nowhere with it. Any fresh ideas out there?

Chas

[Muerrisch]

Interesting record. Sorry, I am not much good on ASC, except my wife's grandpa went from being a cowman [sic] in Harrow Wealdstone August 1914 to enter F&F as ASC 26th August, was transferred to KRRC and killed in action October 1918, buried in Hooge Crater CWGC.

RIP.

I will have a nose around at Kew early Dec. to get some facts about early arrivals.

[chasver]

Here it is a bit bigger, via photobucket. Wonder if Mrs Chas's Grandad is there?

Unfortunately Pte Pamplin does not appear to be in the group.

Chas

[Greyhound]

That's a pity, I suppose it was too much to hope for! This is the only one I have that looks to be 1914. Do you have any of Pte. Pamplin?

[Greyhound]

OK folks, I've now got hold of the original of the photo I posted, and it was in postcard form, sent by Jim to my great-aunt in India ..... postmarked 7 October 1914, Army Post Office, and 7 November 1914 Lucknow. So you detectives were right about the date!

All he wrote on the card was "Now laugh - Jim".

Photographer was R. Guilleminot, Boespflug et Cie. May be a clue there as to location?

[Greyhound]

Reviving this because I've just got my grandfather's obit from the local paper, which revealed a couple of things I hadn't known. Interestingly it says he was the first NCO to land in France, which means it doesn't contradict this info posted by Charles:

the first to cross to France were the advanced parties of two ASC supply depots, each of an officer and 13 men, on 7 Aug. One of the officers was Major H O Knox ASC, who has been credited as the first member of the BEF to actually set foot in France.

So although you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers or family stories for that matter, they might just have been accurate here. Here's an extract (the year is 1935):