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2nd Lieutenant G.A.Turner East Lancs.


rick47
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I'm working my way through some old photos recently sent me by a cousin. The following were packaged together

Bourlon Town

Bourlon_town1.jpg

Crucifix Bouissy Nr Cambrai

Crucifix_Bouissy_Cambrai1.jpg

The first two are self-explanatory and I think they may relate to my Uncle George A Turner

Uncle_Gus1.jpg

My question(s) I suppose are;

As a 2nd Lt in the East Lancs would he have been present in the general area of Bouissy/Bourlon during the battle there.

I have his MIC which indicates he was initially a Lanc Corp with Royal Berks No. 17303 entering France in Sept 1915. From letters I have I also know he was wounded before Nov 1915. According to his sister (my mother) it was "just a bullet scratch on his head". It did leave a scar that he would show us some times!! I can find no mention of a wound bar anywhere for him - would that appear on his MIC.

Where can I find mention of his promotion to 2nd Lt.

I know this is a bit scrambled but I'm still getting used to researching in the military area and so may not be asking questions correctly.

Short form of this is:

Help, I need a history on my Uncle!!!

Rick

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Hello Rick

The Royal Berks service number indicates that he enlisted in late March 1915. He arived in France on 7/9/15 and was discharged to commission on 26/6/17.

The photograph would have been taken around the time he was commissioned - confirmation can be found in the two chevrons on the right arm indicating two years service in the theatre of war.

Stebie will be along shortly with the Gazette entries and the NA officer file reference.

Regards

Mel

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I forgot to add that he arrived in France as part of a draft for the 8th Battalion. At some point he transferred to the 1st Battalion - possibly after he was wounded in November 1915.

By the way, there are no central records of wound stripes and least of all on the MICs or Medal Rolls.

It is a pity that the left arm is obscured in the photograph because George would undoubtedly have one worn - although it does look as if you can just see the edge.

The war diaries of the 8th and 1st are online here:

https://www.thewardrobe.org.uk/wardiary.php

Regards

Mel

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The picture above is fairly late in the war. He is wearing two overseas stripes on his right arm, denoting two years of overseas service. The two insignia below denote a Lieutenant. On his left sleeve you can just see the vertical wound stripe in the same position as his overseas stripes on the other sleeve.

He also has an insignia on the top of his right sleeve, which is a 5 in a diamond by the looks of it.

He sports a medal ribbon on his left chest, which may be a 1914-15 Star (or possibly a Military Cross, but I would guess at the 1914-15 Star)

He is also wearing spurs, which may mean he is the transport officer of his battalion.

What was his middle name, please?

Steve.

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Here's your man's medal roll:

Image details

Description Medal card of Turner, George Augustus

Corps Regiment No Rank

Royal Berkshire Regiment 17303 Lance Corporal

East Lancashire Regiment Second Lieutenant

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/20

Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies

Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War

Piece Thompson J - Ward H H

Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection

Stephen

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Steve

Whoops - I missed all that on the photgraph :blush:

I have had a look at the 8th Battalion war diary for November 1915. They had two stints in the trenches around Loos between 14-18th and 25-29th November. With a bullet wound to the head it looks as if George was sniped but there is no mention in the diary. He was very lucky to be alive!

Regards

Mel

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Can't find any entries for him on the London Gazette. :(

Possible service files now I can get into the NA site:

WO 339/21571 TURNER G A, Capt 1914-1919

WO 339/44776 TURNER G, 2/Lieut 1915-1921

WO 339/47827 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/49564 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/53585 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/60658 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/63334 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/65527 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/68383 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/69951 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/71170 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/74890 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/84374 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/100540 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/103049 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/136470 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 339/139333 TURNER G [1914-1922]

WO 374/69881 TURNER, Lieut G A 1915-1919; 1926

WO 374/69882 TURNER, 2/Lieut G A 1915-1921

Unfortunately there are a fair few. I would probably elimintae the specific G A Turner ones first and then turn to the "generic" ones [1914-1922]

A fair bit of hunting to do there! (And a long distance away....)

Steve.

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Thanks everyone for your assistance so far. This of course raises extra questions and when I get back to my home office tonight I'll sit down and add a few - one does come to mind immediately however - London Gazette - how unusual is it for an entry re promotion to 2nd Lt to NOT appear? I'm guessing that it should be in there around 26/06/17 as he was "discharged to commission" on that date.

Rick

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He should be in the London Gazette. In fact, he IS in the London Gazette, and should be in there three times at least (Commission, promotion to Lieutenant and leaving the Army), it is just difficult to find some of these promotions. Promotions were not official until they had been Gazetted.

The search engine (mainly caused by the quality of the scanning and the state of the originals themselves) can be rather hit and miss, even when you know what to look for....

His date of commission will usually be the day after he was discharged to commission.

Steve.

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Trying to head one of your questions off at the pass....

Page 22 of Osprey's British Battle Insignia (1): 1914-1918, includes a picture of a Private sporting the 5 in a diamond on his right shoulder. The text reads "A private of the 1/5th East Lancashires, 1918. His battle patch bears a white 5 on a green diamond ground, indicating a unit of the intermediate brigade of the 42nd Division."

The background colour denoted the seniority of the brigade within the Division, with a fourth colour for troops of a Division that were not part of a brigade. It is of course very difficult to tell the colours apart on black and white photography.

All we can say is that he may well have been in either the 1/4th battalion of the East Lancashires (42nd Division until February 1918) or 1/5th battalion, who were in 42nd Division for the whole of the war. If the picture can be dated after early-1918 then he would have been 1/5th battalion in all likelihood. If that is a 1914-15 Star then more likely to be 1/5th East Lancashires.

http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm

Steve.

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Me again!

I think this should be him leaving the Army.

War Office,

16th November, 1921.

REGULAR FORCES.

INFANTRY. '

Service Battalions.

The undermentioned relinquish their commissions on completion, of service:

1 Sept. 1921.

E. Lan,. R.

Temp. Lt. G. A. Turner, and retains the rank of Lt.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a....%20A.%20Turner

Two things to note:

1. He does seem to have been a full Lieutenant on leaving the army.

2. He is listed with a service battalion. i.e. Not a T.F. battalion, as the 1/4th and 1/5th battalions were.

Having said that I know that the Northamptonshire Regiment man further down the page, J M Bailey M.C., was serving with a Regular battalion rather than a service battalion in April 1918, so he must have moved battalions to a Service battalion, and if so I don't see why George wouldn't have!

If he was an officer of the 1/4th East Lancashires then he could well have been moved when the battalion was significantly reduced in strength in early 1918.

Steve.

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Hi,

I've just located him 11/03/1918 London Gazette supp. p 3271

E. Lanc Reg.

Listing his promotion from temp 2nd Lt. to temp Lt effective 27/12/1918

I'll put his MIC up tonight in case there is additional info. that I haven't learnt to interpret as yet. I'll also ttry to date the photo based on other items I've collected (family historian can be a fairly demanding job at times - but very worthwhile).

Rick

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I'm afraid I can't date the photo but this is his MIC

Gus_Medals2copy.jpg

I've just reviewed the letters I have and can only say that at 18th Nov 1915 an Aunt mentioned that he had been wounded in the head and 16th Nov 1917 she again mentioned that he was in France with a number of his cousins Maurice and Jessie Bouts.

I'll go over some archived photos next and see if I can find any more of him.

Rick

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Is that Gazette of 1918 and promotion in 1917, or Gazette in 1919 and promotion in 1918, Rick?

Steve.

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Sorry - Gazette is issue date 11th March 1919.

Promotion is 27th Dec 1918.

I'm hoping that my sister will be in the UK in the next couple of years and I'll get her to do the research locally on the NA WO series for me !

Rick

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Just a quick thanks for the help I've received.

I moderate a forum elsewhere and know that assistance isn't always acknowledged as often as it should be.

Rick

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