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York & Lancaster regiment


CABRIT
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My grandfather Arthur Hoyland was in the horse drawn artilery in WW1. He joined up in Sheffield at age 16 in 1914 and survived the war. From the medal cards it appears he was in either the Royal Garrison Artillery (whose uniform looks like his army photo, mounted on horseback) or the York & Lancaster Regiment (Sheffield City 12th batallion I assume). I wonder if anyone knows if the York & Lancaster had artillery? I would like to try to find out where his regiment saw action. I know he was at the Somme and suffered some shrapnel wounds but that is all.

Does anyone have any ideas how I can persue this?

Ian

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Ian,

I had a quick look on the medal index cards on-line, as you have and see the two possibilities.

If you have a photo of him on horseback its a fair bet its the RGA man.

The 12th Btn Y&L would not have had their own artillary but they would have had transport sections which would have been horsedrawn.

Can you make out a cap badge on the photo?

Where was your grandfather from?

I know the absent voters list for Rotherham is available, at the library, but i'm not sure about Sheffield.

This is a list of all those eligble to vote in the 1918 general election but where not at home at the time, ie soldiers overseas.

The lists give details of the home addresses and units servicemen were in and service number at the time they registered, which would have been mid 1918 i think.

If you know the district he came from you could try this route, assuming he qualified by age to vote.

Rob

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Hello there Ian,

Welcome to the Forum, and watch out its very addictive.

If the man your after is Private Arthur Hoyland regimental number 15364, your easiest move might be to try the York and Lancaster Museum at Rotherham, and the curator there is Karl Noble who's e-mail address is karl.noble@rotherham.gov.uk, and he gave me great assistance in my research of my grandfather who was in the 7th Battalion Y&L, if this soldier is the one mentioned earlier on then possibly just by his number he might be able to tell you his Battalion and where and when he went abroad.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the number system through the Battalions of the Regiment, no doubt a far more experienced Y&L man will pick up on your quiery.

All the very best in your researching.

Cheers Roger.

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Thanks Rob,

He was from Attercliffe Sheffield. The cap badge is hard to see but looks like the one in the photo (also hard to see) of the two guys shown in the Long, Long Trail, Weapons of the British Artillery page (also cant see if grandad had the lanyard from the left breast pocket). What threw me in the medal card was the rank of Pioneer, which I think is basically a ditch digger or some such. I know he brought home the same horse shown on his (before going over) photo & dont think a pioneer would have had a horse???

Ian

Ian,

I had a quick look on the medal index cards on-line, as you have and see the two possibilities.

If you have a photo of him on horseback its a fair bet its the RGA man.

The 12th Btn Y&L would not have had their own artillary but they would have had transport sections which would have been horsedrawn.

Can you make out a cap badge on the photo?

Where was your grandfather from?

I know the absent voters list for Rotherham is available, at the library, but i'm not sure about Sheffield.

This is a list of all those eligble to vote in the 1918 general election but where not at home at the time, ie soldiers overseas.

The lists give details of the home addresses and units servicemen were in and service number at the time they registered, which would have been mid 1918 i think.

If you know the district he came from you could try this route, assuming he qualified by age to vote.

Rob

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Thanks Roger,

I sent karl a message. This would be so much easier if 1 My brother had not let his kids sell the medals at a car boot sale! 2. I had been smart enough to get this all from my dad when he was alive. But that would have taken the fun out of it I suppose!

Regards,

Ian Hoyland

Hello there Ian,

Welcome to the Forum, and watch out its very addictive.

If the man your after is Private Arthur Hoyland regimental number 15364, your easiest move might be to try the York and Lancaster Museum at Rotherham, and the curator there is Karl Noble who's e-mail address is karl.noble@rotherham.gov.uk, and he gave me great assistance in my research of my grandfather who was in the 7th Battalion Y&L, if this soldier is the one mentioned earlier on then possibly just by his number he might be able to tell you his Battalion and where and when he went abroad.

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the number system through the Battalions of the Regiment, no doubt a far more experienced Y&L man will pick up on your quiery.

All the very best in your researching.

Cheers Roger.

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Karl Noble at the Y & L Museum is very helpful and responds fairly quickly. He was a great help in following up my queries on my wife's grandfather's service.

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Hello again Ian,

Assuming, the Pioneer bit is correct and he wasn't transferred and he was in the York and lancaster Regiment then the Pioneers where the 7th Battalion, 50th Brigade, 17th (Nothern Division), it didn't matter where they came from they got drafted into a Battalion thta required men, i know there where Pals Battalions in the early days like the 12th and the 10th Battalions.

On the horse issue i have no idea, but if you go to the header of this site you will see a section on the army , enter it then look for other units (New Army) and trawl down to the York and Lancaster Regiment, click open and you will see all the Battalions of the Regiment when formed usually where, and what Brigade and division they are in.

If this lot confuses you i will contact you on your contact card.

Cheers Roger.

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Hi Ian, any chance of posting the photo here on the forum? By the sound of it Arthur was in the RGA of which you have 2 possiblities the Pioneer or this man here My man Levi (see below) was a Sheffield lad who also enlisted into the artillery in 1914 and ended up with the Scots.

Let's be certain you get the right man,

cheers, Jon

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I am attaching a photo in case it helps to answer my questions. The photo was taken outside Wentworth House Nr Sheffield around 1914 (I guess).

Ian

post-26606-1193344287.jpg

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Hi there Ian,

Smashing photo, just a bit too distant, is there anyway you could blow up the area of the cap badge, and also that saddle blanket as it looks like a motif of some sorts.

I am hopeless at doing anything like that.

Wentworth House is certainly in the area of where the 7th Battalion (Pioneers) recruited from, I have been passed it a good few times.

Cheers Roger.

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If you squint and stare hard enough I could swear that the cap badge looks like artillery to me.

Andy

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Great photo Ian...yep he's definately artillery, note he's also wearing a bandolier over his shoulder which I wouldn't expect on a Pioneer.

Wentworth Woodhouse was the HQ to the West Riding RFA. There was a West Riding RGA (TF) which was formed in York in early August 1914 which were part of the 49th (West Riding) Division, although I haven't found any connection with the RGA at Wentworth at this time.

The A. Hoyland which I linked you too I believe is a territorial force soldier. SDGW shows a man with the same number (163) as having served with the East Riding RGA (TF). As a penance Ian you need to send your brother and his kids on a mission to find the medals. How many medals did Arthur have? The medal cards can be downloaded and they may contain much more information such as if he was wounded there may be a reference to a Silver War Badge, a date of entry into theatre of war and if you're really lucky a battery or brigade.

Cheers, Jon

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Thanks Jon,

I have afew questions:

What is the SDGW?

Where did you see the number 163?

Having said that I do not think he was terratorial army as he was only 16 when he volunteered so cant see that connection.

I wonder why the artillery wore bandoliers as they were gunners? I know they did as there is a nice photo on the long trail artillery weapons page. I remember asking him if he saw many aircraft (my real interest) and he said in the excitment to shoot at one they all blew the dust covers off the end of their rifles!!!!!

Perhaps the pioneer ref is a "typo' as they must have filled in thousands of forms. Perhaps RGA was a typo for RFA?

I think there were 3 medals including the basic 2 but am not sure as I have not seen them for 20 years and they were mixed in with th dads cousins WW2 medals. I will look up the silver war badge as I know he had 3 schrapnel wounds to see if it jogs my memory.

I have seen the medal index card but thought i had to buy the medal cards for 3.50. i wanted to be sure I had the right Arthur before i did this.

Thanks again,

Ian

Great photo Ian...yep he's definately artillery, note he's also wearing a bandolier over his shoulder which I wouldn't expect on a Pioneer.

Wentworth Woodhouse was the HQ to the West Riding RFA. There was a West Riding RGA (TF) which was formed in York in early August 1914 which were part of the 49th (West Riding) Division, although I haven't found any connection with the RGA at Wentworth at this time.

The A. Hoyland which I linked you too I believe is a territorial force soldier. SDGW shows a man with the same number (163) as having served with the East Riding RGA (TF). As a penance Ian you need to send your brother and his kids on a mission to find the medals. How many medals did Arthur have? The medal cards can be downloaded and they may contain much more information such as if he was wounded there may be a reference to a Silver War Badge, a date of entry into theatre of war and if you're really lucky a battery or brigade.

Cheers, Jon

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I received this from the Wentworth House web site:

From what I understand a battery of the Royal Horse Artillery was formed inWentworth prior to the war and a second battery on the outbreak of war in1914. Earl Fitzwilliam was C.O. of both and they trained in Wentworth Parkso your grandfather was almost certainly attached to one of these. Thefirst battery saw active service in Egpyt and Palestine whilst the secondwent to the Western Front. There is a memorial in the church to thosemembers of the two batteries who gave their lives.

Ian

Great photo Ian...yep he's definately artillery, note he's also wearing a bandolier over his shoulder which I wouldn't expect on a Pioneer.

Wentworth Woodhouse was the HQ to the West Riding RFA. There was a West Riding RGA (TF) which was formed in York in early August 1914 which were part of the 49th (West Riding) Division, although I haven't found any connection with the RGA at Wentworth at this time.

The A. Hoyland which I linked you too I believe is a territorial force soldier. SDGW shows a man with the same number (163) as having served with the East Riding RGA (TF). As a penance Ian you need to send your brother and his kids on a mission to find the medals. How many medals did Arthur have? The medal cards can be downloaded and they may contain much more information such as if he was wounded there may be a reference to a Silver War Badge, a date of entry into theatre of war and if you're really lucky a battery or brigade.

Cheers, Jon

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Hi Ian, appologies for the acronyms...SDGW (Soldiers Died in the Great War) this is a searchable database that was compiled I think in 1921 (don't quote me on that though) and is available on CD Rom.

Gunner 163 A. Hoyland RGA I think this man is the more probable for your Grandfather, as mentioned above I have found a link with the East Riding RGA and the No. 163. There could be a possibility that the West Riding RGA Also trained at Wentworth. I don't think that there are any typos on the MICs that you have looked at, Arthur looking more like a gunner than a pioneer. If it were me Ian I would download the MIC for the Gunner A. Hoyland above. If your Grandfather had three medals then he would have gone overseas before the end of December 1915.

cheers, Jon

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Hi Jon,

Since grandad did not die in the war can he be 163 who you found on the SDGW (quick learner here LOL).

Interesting that you found A. Hoyland and I did not Typing Arthur hoyland. I never thought to try that. I will have another look before I start down loading at 3.50 a pop. You can take the boy out of yorkshire but you can't take Yorkshire out of the boy!!!

Ian

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Sorry Ian I'm confusing you :huh: This is the fella who was with the East Riding RGA and is listed on SDGW....we're all still learning :P

cheers, Jon

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post-26606-1193896137.jpgI downloaded a llthe medal index cards! The only possibility is attached.

TA RGA Gunner of regiment #163 has a date of 1909 which is way too early.

The RGA man in the battached card is the only possibility as the others are not artillery. He enlisted in late 1915 which Ithink is posshe as he would still have been 16 which was when he voluntered. He got a badge & a medal (not the 2 or 3 medals I know for sure he had...British & Victory for sure). Does anyone know what the action taken 299 means. Note he was a gunner not a pioneer as shown on the one line reprisentation of the card.

The discharge code means he was no longer fit for duty....strange as his 3 schrapnel wounds were not so bad (Idont thik anyway) to not return to action.

Still a little confused, so any helpfull hint are most welcome.

One thought. As he lied about his age could he have got away with a false name too????

Ian

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Does anyone know what the action taken 299 means.

Ian I think this is the reference for the page in the RGA Silver War Badge Roll ....Held at Kew that your man is entered in.

Should give you dates of enlistment,any overseas service and reason for discharge.

Ady

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Thanks Ady

One more thing, under corps it says RGA under that is the number 49 followed by something I cant make out. Is this battery, battallion ???

What about the 2 small printed lines at the bottom, does that mean anything or just a form #?

Ian

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:wacko::blush: ok Ian I've eaten a little bit of my hat...

the 49 relates to Arthur's division, 49th (West Riding) Division. Would like to know where the 'Pioneer' comes into it. Note the enlistment date on the MIC, how sure are you that Arthur joined up in 1914? He would certainly have been entitled to the BWM and Victory medal, but not the Star as I doubt he went overseas before 1916.

West Riding Heavy Battery, RGA (a Battery of 4 4.7-inch guns which left the Division to join VIII Brigade, II Group HA on 24 April 1915; returned to Division 13 May 1915, and finally left on 28 June 1915, rejoining VIII Brigade (from the mother site). This was the only RGA unit with the division.

The word sickness? appears on the MIC, could this have possibly been an infection? Not sure what the initials that follow it are. Of course if Arthur lied about his age he could also lie about his name, but I would see this as unlikely since his medals have been in the family and would have been inscribed with his name, so I'm sure if it were a false name you'd probably know about it. I think you've got the right man (he says munching another hat). Which part of Sheffield is your Grandfather from? I've had a quick look on Ancestry and there are a couple of Hoyland's from the city, but alas no Arthur that fits,

cheers, Jon

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Hi Again,

Just responded to your other message. Pioneer is on the page that comes up on ancestry. I think the actual card is clearly Gnr. The transcription is bad thats all. You are correct about the name it was correct on the medals. The more i think of it I am sure he only had the 2 . I have seen the same 4 medals as my dads cousins on e-bay and I kknow we had 6 in total. No war badge though! Arthur would have been 16 at the date of enlistment so that matches. He was born in Jan-Feb-Mar 1898I expect I got the 1914 part wrong but that is what I remembered from my dad 40 years ago!!!

He can be found in the 1901 census living in the Ecclesall Bierlow Parish Sheffield. Interestingly his brothers John & Frank also served in WW1 and survived. With the great losses in WW1 I think there parents were very lucky. I met Frank at grandads funeral and he had a perfectly round hole right in the middle of his forhead and the skin pulsed over it (very facinating to a young lad!). It was the result of a bullet that hit exactly on the rim of his tin hat and had just enough energy left to puncture the skull without killing him!

Where did you find the facts about the West Riding Battery. I would like to read it.

Hope you had a good weekend,

Ian

:wacko::blush: ok Ian I've eaten a little bit of my hat...

the 49 relates to Arthur's division, 49th (West Riding) Division. Would like to know where the 'Pioneer' comes into it. Note the enlistment date on the MIC, how sure are you that Arthur joined up in 1914? He would certainly have been entitled to the BWM and Victory medal, but not the Star as I doubt he went overseas before 1916.

West Riding Heavy Battery, RGA (a Battery of 4 4.7-inch guns which left the Division to join VIII Brigade, II Group HA on 24 April 1915; returned to Division 13 May 1915, and finally left on 28 June 1915, rejoining VIII Brigade (from the mother site). This was the only RGA unit with the division.

The word sickness? appears on the MIC, could this have possibly been an infection? Not sure what the initials that follow it are. Of course if Arthur lied about his age he could also lie about his name, but I would see this as unlikely since his medals have been in the family and would have been inscribed with his name, so I'm sure if it were a false name you'd probably know about it. I think you've got the right man (he says munching another hat). Which part of Sheffield is your Grandfather from? I've had a quick look on Ancestry and there are a couple of Hoyland's from the city, but alas no Arthur that fits,

cheers, Jon

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Hi Kevin,

I started the second post to attract new comments but I cant find it now (still new here) so cant see the respons. Can you point me in the right direction please.

Ian

Ian, if you look at your other post you will see that some of the details have been filled in.

Regards Kevin

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Your other thread is in "Interpreting medal Index Cards".

I too think it says 49 Coy (Company). His number is not consistant with a TA unit, but an ordinary enlistment, and possibly starting his service career at Fort Brockhurst, Gosport, where he would then have been sent on to any number of places to be trained.

Link to other thread is http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...showtopic=85127 .

Regards Kevin

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