Is this really Gough?

[armourersergeant]

Have a look below can someone and tell me if you think that the middle pic is really General Sir Hubert Gough as the caption says. The one next is definately him but the centre one seems not?

confused

Arm.

Ps i have added the right hand one from another source.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

I don't think it is.

Could it be Brig.Gen J.E. Gough VC COS 1st Army who died 1915?

[armourersergeant]

I thought of that first but seems not to be him either, see below,, thing is he seems fimilar so maybe IWM got it right and it is him but just the face seems wrong shape!!!

Arm.

[armourersergeant]

If you look at the medals of J Gough it certainly isnt him, but if you look at the medasl of H Gough and the other picture they seem similar but not the same. Any medal experts able to help?

Arm.

[Bryn_Hammond]

Arm

This is all a very odd co-incidence. We in the office have had precisely the same discussion in the past week or so. I originally asked my (non-FWW history) colleagues to comment and all (except me) eventually decided that it probably WAS Gough. I remain unconvinced and intended bearding my chum (one of the authors of A book (if not THE book) in which this picture appears).

I will try to follow up on the neg. no. here and see firstly what the caption says and secondly what the original source of the acquisition was. If it's the Official Series however that won't help much.

I have a vague recollection that I might have asked said author before, however, and he assured me it was correct.

I don't think it's Johnnie Gough.

Bryn

[armourersergeant]

Bryn,

I took the pic from a book i got yesterday by Peter Hart and Nigel Steel 'Passchendaele'. He was doing a talk at the Centre for First World War Studies last night.

thanks in advance.

Arm.

[Simon Furnell]

I have read the book by Hart and Steele,and a very good read it is.

Of the 3 photos,i believe the man on the left is General Plumer.

The other photo,is captioned as Sir Hubert Gough in the book,although comparing the 2 photos of him you have posted,i can see why there could be confusion.

He was either having a bad day,or squinting into the sun,i should think.

I have a first edtion copy of Fifth Army,by General Gough,and inside the front cover is a painting,by Frank O Salisbury.

In this painting,he looks more like the man on the far right,but i would think they are one and the same.

Can't see Mr Steele and Mr Hart,making a mistake.

All the best.

Simon.

[armourersergeant]

Simon,

Thats my feeling, that they would not make a mistake, but then if it was catalogued by IWM as such and none of us can agree, perhaps they could be wrong?

I have had an experience recently with IWM and cataloging. They have a print photo of Gen Forestier-Walker, commander of 28th Div and staff at Chanak 1919. Only problem is that FW did not command the 28th he commanded 27th division. I have been told that all photos around this one are all of 28th div.

Now i realsie that Gough is by far more well known than FW (of which i am yet to get a pic of him) but it is also possible they have made a mistake, as i beleive they have done in the above case of FW.

Now if someone could blow up the medals and tell me what they are he is wearing i might be able to see if Gough had them? Is their a photo wizard out there followed by a medal identifier?

Regards

Arm.

[Bryn_Hammond]

Arm

I have not forgotten about this but have been somewhat thwarted in my efforts. I know Alan Wakefield (fellow member of this forum) was hoping to have a look to see if he could glean the source of this image's caption, but I haven't been able to get a chance to talk to Peter and Nigel. I will try to follow it up again asap.

Bryn

[armourersergeant]

No problem Bryn,

I know you tankies are alittle slow on the ground.

Arm.

Ps

looking foward to your talk next month at Northants WFA meeting.

[Simon Furnell]

Evening all.

Are you a Tankie,Bryn?

I am a bit of a Tankie myself.

My Great-Grandad was at Villers Bretonneux in April 1918,and KIA on April 24th.

One of the guns in his MGC battalion,the 58th,engaged a German A7V,and disabled it with Vickers machine gun fire.

Those guys,worked hard!!!

It was also the day that the first Tank,versus Tank,battle occurred.

Keeps me interested.

All the best.

Simon.

[Bryn_Hammond]

Yes, I'm writing my thesis about tank co-operation with other arms. But I'm not just a 'tankie'. I'm a father, a brother, a writer, a lover... Oh, this is just too ridiculous!

The word on the Gough pic is that one of the authors has confirmed 'It's not Gough'. Well, he sort of said 'It's NOT Gough ... but it could be...'

Well, it isn't, as any scenario to make it Gough is contrived and unlikely.

The error's likely to go back to the source of the original captions and if they came from the AP&SS (as they appear to have done), the captions could have been the ones they provided. I'm still making sure but I will get there in the end (OK, no more tank references, thank you).

Bryn

[armourersergeant]

As an update to this thread. Today i visited the IWM archives and whilst skimming through the WW1 Generals I came across a photo of a General who looks remarkably like the 'fake' Gough pictured above.

I would say I am 99% positive that it is him and as such he is Major-General Sutton C.B. Inspector General of communications. It is in the GSA 16 album photo reference 123. I do not wish to post the photocopy i have as i have not got permission to show the copy I have and after all the copying i did today i do not wish to take the perverbial anymore than i have.

Please note Allan if you are looking, the Ten pound note was duely posted in the box on the way out.

Whilst Bryn has yet to come back to us on this thread i feel he does deserve the real credit for this, as he notiifed me that in this same album was a photo of General Snow. Had i not have been looking for this then i would never have found the man.

regards

Arm.

[Bryn_Hammond]

Arm

Got back off my hols on Saturday and have been trying to catch up since then. I got your email - many thanks. Your identification of 'Fake Gough' as Sutton looks spot on to me from a look at the GSA image you've found.

Any credit goes to you. Sorry I didn't get back to you via the thread about this before now but it's one of the many 'lost' things from a chaotic life!

Bryn

[armourersergeant]

Not a problem Bryn,

lets just say it was team work

hope you had a good hols

regards

Arm.