1st day of the Somme

15 January , 2004

I am about to start work on my MA dissertation, which is on the subject of the effect of the Battle of the Somme on Leeds. However just to make life interesting, the university has just asked me to speek at a conferance in March on this subject.

If people could spare a couple of moments I wonder if you could tell me your impressions of the first day of the somme, and its effects on the Pals battalions.

This is not a trick question, I am trying to get a feel for what the "general public" which I know in some ways you are not might answer to this.

I am trying to see if there might be some popular myths or views on this subject.

SO I am not at this stage looking for long accurate and erudite answers.

Many thanks

John

15 January , 2004

To get the view of the general public, you need to ask the general public. People on the forum are by definition those with a special interest in the Great War, ranging from family history beginners to noted authorities, authors and guides. Many will have taken some pains to avoid an oversimplified and uninformed impression of the day. That's what we are here for.

15 January , 2004

I would go out and do vox pop / interviews in Leeds, or get a few of your students to do it in exchange for a pizza.

Or ask your students to ask their family members and neighbours and write down the answers.

Or write a letter to the local newspaper and invite email replies.

Gwyn

15 January , 2004

Both of the above answers are, like most of what one receives here, VERY good answers. However:

If your talk / MA thesis is about what the public thought about the 1st day THEN ... I would go to the newspapers of the time - look through the letters to the editor, etc. and look at diaries of the times for that day.

If you are looking for today's reaction, it'll be a bunch tougher ... interviewing older folks will be interesting, but you'll get as is often discussed here ... the reactions to the first day, filtered through a long time and what adults had to say about it. Interviewing younger people will be tough. The first day of the Somme is perhaps the keystone in the "Lions led by Donkeys" theme and you're likely to get that sort of stuff given back - and only those who were awake during that part of the History course. I know in the States, 99.99% of the people couldn't tell you what the Somme was, no less ideas about it.

Though his book is a bit off-putting because of its Polemic tone, one of the key messages Mud, Blood and Poppycock makes is the actual casualties on the first day really depends on which unit, where in the advance. Were Leeds PALS units lucky or not? If they were among the high casualty rate units, I think the papers will show something, though public discussions are often less revealing than private ones ... a journal or diary of the MPs for Leeds would be interesting to examine.

Public reactions are hard to determine no less decipher - especially now, so many years after the day. Safe to say, almost everyone knew somebody hurt - if a Leeds unit was a high casualty unit - so there will be little "positive" feeling ...

I think it will be like asking what the public's reaction to Gettysburg was ... it would be either a reaction to what the media said (and how it was spun) or intensely personal. My Great Grandmother lost three of her four sons in Pennsylvania that day ... what was her reaction?

Frankly, your thesis sounds exciting and interesting .. a true Historian's delight! The effect of a battle on a town would be interesting ... economic impact, lives lost, grieving families, heros vaulted to prominence, etc. ... Cool stuff.

15 January , 2004

Ok lets try again.

One of the problems with doing this from work.

what I meant to say was, I would prefer people to anser this without rushing to look at there books and other information. I realise the forum is a place for people with a special interest, its why I am here to.

I have a particular angle on this question which I don't want to place on the forum yet, so as not to influence peoples answers.

So once again, if members could spend a couple of moments just to add there impressions of what the first day was about.

One historian has said

"The appalling events of the First World War were brought home to the local population in July 1916, when virtually every street in Leeds lost a man in the bloody Battle of Somme"

Hopefully I have explained myself a bit better this time.

John

15 January , 2004

Okay, thanks -

A long anticipated offensive raises expectations and the certain knowledge there will be casualties. It comes, the newspapers provide evidence of "gains" but no war-ending victories and after a few days, the casualty lists start coming in ... people fear the post carrier and he seems to stop at every door ... Churches fill and neighbors start baking and preparing meals for those bereaved and find someone baking or cooking for them as well. Stunned silence but knowledge it's all for Victory ... a victory proclaimed but not really shown as the maps become more clear and the war continues. Pictures on the mantle once proud are now draped in black and taken by mothers, wives and sweathearts to bed in clenched arms ... Fathers become silent and withdrawn ... Younger brothers / cousins vow to avenge ... somebody's got to be responsible, what happened?

15 January , 2004

John

I hope this is the sort of thing you are after. My overall impression of 1 July 16 is that , like the Curate's egg, it was good in parts. Down South where the British and French armies linked the results were pretty good. Maybe not as spectacular as one would have wished for but a success all the same. The same could not be said for the Northern sector of the line. Some units e.g the Ulster Div. did well, initially, but overall the impression is that the results were far from good, even disastrous, and it is here as much as anywhere that the battle got it's awful reputation.

Garth

15 January , 2004

Following your advice i have not run off to get my books so here goes.

I would say that ten years ago my answer would have been murder, mayhem and incompetance.

Today the over riding thought i get when thinking of 1st july is of the commanders inability through bad communications and/or bad leadership to change or alter the outcome once the men had gone over the top. With the intel coming back it is easy to see that they could not perhaps believe what they were being told, given the casualties etc, but also they should have done everything they could to follow up the imformation they were recieving.

Also I am of the opinion that too many were thinking of reputations and jobs when they should have been thinking of the lives of the men in their Corps/Divisions etc.

Not sure if this is what you were after, but there ya go.

Arm.

15 January , 2004

When the film of the first day of the Somme was shown in cinemas the people were unused to seeing such images. It was noted a lady stood up in the cinema and cried ' My God, they're dead!' when she realised what she was seeing.

There was a big difference in seeing moving images of the battle and the newspaper photos which had appeared up to then. It probably was not too dis-similar to the public reaction to the images of 9/11.

When the lists started appearing in the newspapers it was a further shock to the public.

I can't answer for Leeds but Edinburgh went into mourning for the 15th & 16th Royal Scots and other units.

When was the film shown in Leeds? Any newspaper reports on the effects?

Aye

Malcolm

15 January , 2004

You mean what today's general public would think, don't you, not what the public thought in 1916 or thereafter.

I think most people wouldn't have a clue where the Somme is (France somewhere or maybe Belgium). Further, they would probably be entirely unaware that there were countries other than England (I said that deliberately) and Germany involved. Nor would they think it lasted more than one day or maybe a couple more.

If people have heard of a Pals battalion, they think it has something to do with every male in a town or a football team joining up and getting killed together. Everyone very shocked - they thought it couldn't happen like that - and grief overwhelmed town. Then 'they' (who? dunno; the government) got rid of Pals battalions because they were seen to be a Bad Thing and bad for morale and no-one would join up.

I know a few extremely unhistorically-minded people, and I will ask them.

Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Gwyn

(I am not being flippant; these are statements I've heard from people older than I am whose relatives were injured among the Manchester pals.)

15 January , 2004

Gwyn and everybody thanks for the comments, keep them coming.

For my disertation I will be looking at ideas about the somme from the period, for the lecture it is a little wider looking at popular ideas( current) surrounding the Somme.

Whilst many people don't know where the Somme is most have heard about the high casualties of the first day, some can even quote the figure.

Can I ask a supplementary question ( sounds like a quiz)

could people think about the composition of the Pals battalions and the connection to the battle.

I promise I will put up on the forum where I am coming from on this a little later, when there have been a few more posts

John

15 January , 2004

Dear John,

I think you might be setting yourself up for trouble by selecting 'The first day', if you are indeed looking at contemporary reactions. While we can, looking back, realise the sheer scale of the casualties on that one day, in 1916 this would have been harder. The casualty lists seeped through gradually and their main effect was culmulative as the bloody fighting dragged on and on through the summer and autumn. No newspaper published during the war would have clearly stated the scale of the record British Army casualites caused on the one day, although many of British population would over the months realise that this had been the case. The film footage was released many weeks after the event. In the towns in question the folk memory of the sacrifices made by the Pals Battalions is even stronger.

As for the reaction today, well, I think that the first day of the Somme has had a very large impact on the popular imagination of the war as a whole. I think if you ask people today to describe a typical scene of the Great War, then something based on the first day of the Somme would come out (perhaps with some mud of Passechedale added in). It is an image that has been frequently reinforced over the years - a prime example being the famous last scene of Blackadder, being repeated on BBC2 this Saturday, by the way.

I know you wish to avoid books but for your MA, if not the March conference, you will have to acquaint yourself with the large amount of writing on this. The historiography of the war in Britain seems to have been a hot topic recently - you must read what Brian Bond & Gary Sheffield have written on this and the book from the conference on the Somme film. Also, check out Esther MacCallum-Stewart's great (and brave...)site based on her PhD thesis on The Great War & Popular Culture. Good luck - sounds a very good subject for a MA thesis.

Paul

15 January , 2004

John

You mention in your first popst the possibility of myths. And I think the "death in every street, from the first day" is one such. I know you asked us to do this off the top of our heads, but I had to check out my SDGW before responding.

I do not know what it was like in the small towns that supplied had Pals battalions, but it would have been a myth in the big cities like Manchester. I checked out SDGW for the 17th Mancs ( my main interest). There were 113 deaths on the first day. Looking at residence, you see a very wide spread right across Greater Manchester. I double checked against the 16th Mancs and found a similar pattern. This is because the City Battalions were originally enlisted from the "warehousemen and clerks" of the city - so the "pals" element was working together, not living together. This means the devastation would have been spread across many streets and communities.

It's only as the casualties mounted over the weeks that there would have started to be an effect. Possibly more of an effect would be when the number of wounded started to return to the UK (isn't there a rule of thumb of something like 3 wounded for every death?).

The effect on small communities is cumulative. I am researching the war memorials in what were four smallish communities. Time and time again, the same streets crop up.

15 January , 2004

I know you wish to avoid books but for your MA, if not the March conference, you will have to acquaint yourself with the large amount of writing on this.

Sorry Paul

What I meant was that I hoped people who replied would not rush to books to make sure of their facts.

I have done a fair bit of reading for the MA with lots more to do, but the lecture was a little unexpected and in some ways a month or two early. I did ask the lecturer running the conferance if I could get credit rather than money for doing it

John

15 January , 2004

A note on sources:

You'll be familiar with the Liddle, but don't forget there are supplementary resources in and around the area. I am involved with Otley Museum a few miles West and would encourage you to consider the artillery brigades of 49th Division as well as the infantry - the 1/10th Otley, 1/11th Ilkley and 4th West Riding Ammunition column from Burley all display local, 'vernacular' characteristics similar to the Leeds Pals. I can provide details if interested.

re: first day on Somme - both batteries ranged on several notable targets (Mouqet Farm etc) and were heavily involved throughout esp. during assault on Leipzig redoubt. I think 3rd Ypres had a bigger effect on them, the Otley battery especially but it's v. difficult to tell - Wharfedale and Airedale Observor can provide some info though.

I think we have records of some Leeds Pals who came from Otley, but don't quote me on that, I'll have to look them up.

Personally, I would look at the Pals whole engagement during the Somme, not least because of the scarcity of sources for one day esp. given the question you're asking.

15 January , 2004

John, I am muddled.

What I think you are saying is this, in effect:

Imagine that you are Josephine Public or her brother Joe, living in Leeds, England, in January 2004. If some geezer with a clipboard popped up and said to you, ‘Jo/Joe, what does the phrase the first day on the Somme mean to you?’ what would you say?

Then, if the geezer with the clipboard, said to you, ‘Ey up, Jo, do you know what Pals battalions were?’ and you said ‘Aye, I do that,’ and he said, ‘Well, Jo, how do you think what you think happened on the first day of the Somme affected how people in the Pals battalions and the people in the towns they came from felt about the Pals battalion?’ what would you say? (Still in role being Jo or Joe in Leeds 2004.)

And through all this, we have to put aside what we know about the Great War.

And you don’t want us to tell you how to go about researching your MA, because being a bright bloke you’ve got that side of things sorted for the time being (but you’re too polite to say that).

Yes?

Cos thats what I fort you ment, being a bit dim meself.

Gwyn

15 January , 2004

I do not know what it was like in the small towns that supplied had Pals battalions, but it would have been a myth in the big cities like Manchester

John, I'm not for a moment doubting your expertise and I know you are correct.

I have, however, often heard the son of an injured survivor of a Pals battalion from Manchester saying that everyone was killed on the first day (which demonstrably isn't true). I think his myth arose from his belief that his father did not talk about the war, which is in itself a myth, because the daugher has a good recollection of things she was told. I suspect that like other men of his generation, he simply did not feel comfortable knowing, because in knowing, he would have to admit to emotions such as distress, pain, loss, anger.

Using the soldier's diary, we have mapped his route and photographed the places. His son simply does not wish to know - and that is, of course, his right. In some ways it seems to touch areas of his own past, in the Second World War and he would never admit to having any emotions about that either.

Therefore, having myths creates a useful comfort zone for some people, who can retell a commonly believed story and avoid confronting any personal feelings about it at all.

Gwyn

15 January , 2004

Yes, I am muddled too.

I suggest the essential steps are:

1. Get the question quite clear in your own mind.

2. Frame the question so that it will be clear to your sample.

3. Put the question to your sample, not to some other group.

I still don't think this forum can provide the sample for the question you are trying to put.

Alternatively, you could ask forum pals to pass on any 'general public' impressions they have noted along the way.

15 January , 2004

Ok Let me start this again.

I have a number of thoughts on the subject.

1) The battle of the Somme was bad especially the first day, however was it as bad as it is now portrayed in popular culture, a good example of this is you often see the statistics for casualties on the fitrst day, however many people think casualties equals dead.

2) The battle of the somme is portrayed as the death of the PALS battalions who as you all know were drawn from people who all lived in the same street and were related. As John quite rightly points out this is patently not true.

What I was trying to do was provoke simple responses, to see how widspread some of these misconceptions were, as has been quiet rightly pointed out this is perhaps not the best place. however there has been enough to confirm that a number of people do believe that the new Army was wiped out on the 1st of July.

I didn't want to put theses comments up to start the discussion maybe I should have . The quote I used about every street in leeds comes from a well recieved publication on Leeds by somebody in the Thorsby Society, its a good sound bite, but how indicative is it of what many people think happened. I believe that in some places thae Somme devestated local populations and it is still described as the worst day for the British Army. But I also don't believe that this is the whole story.

SO my interest is a) what actually happend statistically speaking, and if as I belive there is a great deal of mis information about this period where did it come from.

I hope this explains a bit better what I am trying to do and perhaps why my initial post were as they were. (the badly thought out ones I put down to having forum access at work)

John

15 January , 2004

John

Keeping it simple I gave myself 10 seconds to write down what I feel about, and what I associate with, 1 July 1916 Somme offensive:

Anger

Frustration

Revulsion

Incompetence

Lies

Needless waste

Now some may consider this based on misinformation, narrow viewpoint, etc, but it might provoke the kind of answers your after.

15 January , 2004

1) The battle of the Somme was bad especially the first day, however was it as bad as it is now portrayed in popular culture, a good example of this is you often see the statistics for casualties on the fitrst day, however many people think casualties equals dead.
2) The battle of the somme is portrayed as the death of the PALS battalions who as you all know were drawn from people who all lived in the same street and were related. As John quite rightly points out this is patently not true.

A response to your two points.

1. Statistically 1st July 1916 was as bad as the numbers suggest. I believe only the fall of Singapore resulted in the 'loss' of more British troops but they mainly surrendered. Whilst it is true that 'only' c. 20,000 (or one third) of the casualties were fatal on the day a significant number of men would have died of wounds in the weeks after. I have always assumed that these were not included in the daily total (certainly, they are not included in publications such as 'Soldiers Killed on the First Day of the Somme', which is riddled with other errors anyway).

Also, a substantial number of men would have been so badly wounded as to never fight again. As to the morale effect of the casualties, the delivery of telegrams was not isolated just to the relatives of the dead. Relatives of the wounded would have been informed also. Consequently, you can, on average, multiply by three the number of households who would have been informed of a casualty resulting from 1st July. To compound the problem, delays in dealing with the huge number of casualties would have resulted in these deliveries merging with those for casualties from subsequent days.

For those battalions coming from truly tight knit communities this would have been truly devastating as many of these towns would not have received many or any significant casualty notifications previously, in WW1 or any other war. Take the Accrington Pals as an example. Casualties were 584 out of 720 going over the top. The impact of these casualties on the community was not immediate but was spread out over two months with photos of dead, wounded and missing appearing in the local newspaper daily. Even if a relative was not a casualty, a friend, neighbour or colleague almost certainly was. The morale effect on the population was cumulative.

The 'First Day on the Somme' was the start of the grief and, as nothing else came close, the effects of the summer's casualties on the local population might all seemed to have stemmed conveniently in the public consciousness from that one day.

2. Question: are you saying that portrayal of 1st July as 'the death of the Pals battalions' is not true or that the image of the Pals battalions as 'people who all lived in the same street and were related' is not true, or both? Because:

a. Given the way that the casualties were replaced then it could be said that 1st July was the death of the 'concept' of the Pals battalions (even if the majority of any one battalion did not die); and

b. Pals battalions varied hugely, as has been pointed out, with those from large municipal areas being less 'local' than those, for example, from the small cotton, wool and coal towns of Lancashire and Yorkshire where the impact was proportionately greater. I believe that in some of these smaller towns, services were being held to commemorate 1st July at least as recently as the 1960s and 70s.

15 January , 2004

I am sure you would, if testing Joe Public, get

- total incomprehension, most people having never heard of the Somme, or

- a belief that Blackadder and his chums were killed there but it's all poppy fields now, or

- the Battle of the Somme lasted no more than a day. The soldiers were all pals who joined up togather and they were all killed in the first few minutes.

I remember reading of a similar test conducted quite recently, on historic matters. I may have the number wrong but something in excess of 70% of those questioned did not know when WW2 ended. God help us.

15 January , 2004

John

Can I just clarify that what I said was that the "death in every street" was a myth. 1 July did, however, destroy the "original concept".

As quoted in Middlebrook's book, one survivor of a Manchester Bn said that it was "never again a Battalion of the Clerks and warehousemen of Manchester". And he was right. The draft that topped up the 17th Mancs, in mid July came from over 20 different units.

15 January , 2004

Many thanks to those people who have taken the time to answer, I hope you will continue to develope some of the themes that are now coming out. I hasten to add that the work i am doing really relates only to Leeds although I suspect, the same could be said for a number of larger towns. I accept that Accrington is differant.

Now whilst looking at some web serches on google for the Leeds Pals, I came accross the one below from the BBc Leeds web site talking about the CD produced by the CWGC

"Horace Iles enlisted in the Leeds Pals Regiment when he was just fourteen. Two years later he was killed on July 1 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the battle which claimed the lives of 750 of the 900 Leeds Pals who participated."

I know that this is a mis quote, based on the Leeds Pals web site, but maybe in some ways it reinforces some of what I was thinking.

John

15 January , 2004

John

Having read this post and initially not understanding where you were going, I think I have gradually realised what you are asking.

My impressions of The First day of The Somme.

The battle was the biggest attempted by the British in the war thus far, and in effect the blooding of a large number of the Pals Battalions in large scale set piece battles.The overestimation of the effects of the bombardment,combined with the inexperience of the Pals Battalions combined to produe a day of carnage never seen before (or since) by the British army.

It was the birth and death of the Pals Battalions all in one day.

Some good work was done,but the casualty figures simply negated that, and no I don't think that the casualty figires looked worse than they actually were-badly injured men did not fare particularly well in the survival stakes of the time and so many of those wounded will have not recovered to return to duty(or in some cases at all).It wasn't quite whole streets were hit by this but communities of all sizes were hit. The Pals idea meant they more readily realised the consequences of the battle as the letters came with news of deaths in the field.

This is where the popular perception came from the experience of those communities.

On the other hand armies have to fight battles to get the necessary experience(from Privates to Generals) and the method used was fully in keeping with the way the War was waged at that time.

It was a big chance that was taken-and history shows that the gamble, on the whole, was not successful.

regards Spike

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