Jump to content
Great War Forum

Remembered Today:

Alan Abbott

The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

Recommended Posts

Piorun
Thank you, Antony. Anything on L/Cpl. Archibald McAlpine, 13th Btn, KIA 15.9.18? Or what this unit was about that day?

Again, Jesse, no Index listing in the History for Corporal McAlpine by name. However, at the beginning of September, 13th Battalion was opposite the "Quarries", by Loos. At 0500 hours, "D" Compnay moved into the Quarries and established a line of posts. This work was vigourously defended by the Germans and, by 1400 hours, the Company was forced to fight its way back to its original position. On Septemeber 13th, "A" Company took the Quarries and held them against a series of German bombing (hand-grenade) attacks during the night. On September 14th, "C" Company relieved "A" Company and had to fight hard to repel three desperate bombing assaults. Due to the constant fighting, constant replacement was essential and, on September 15th, "B" Company took over from "C" Company with the intention of driving the Germans further back. However, the Germans attacked first at 0525 hours and succeeded in establishing a post on the lip of the Quarries; there then ensued some grim and desperate fighting before the Germans were dislodged. On September 16th, "D" Company went back in and remained until that night. On September 24th, the Battalion was relieved and remained out of the line until October.

It would appear that your man was likely in "B" Company, perhaps in "C", and died in very deperate and brave circumstances. Sorry that's all I can give you. Antony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piorun
Indeed, do not post when tired.

The advice re Tom Gordon still stands though, an injury as serious as this would have merited a mention in the West Lothian Courier.

John

I agree, John, I've contributed my share of snafus after midnight - and a port :o

Good thought about Tom.

Yours, Antony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rockford
The advice re Tom Gordon still stands though, an injury as serious as this would have merited a mention in the West Lothian Courier.

John,

It does, and it did. I now have information relating to two mentions in the Courier.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eltoro1960

That's good Brian.

Tom is a very obliging lad, out of curiosity did you find out dates, battalions etc,I have the 11th,12th 15th & 16th War Diaries for these dates.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tomclark
Indeed, do not post when tired.

James Thompson by his service number looks like he was in one the service battalions, rather than a TF unit ie the 8th or 9th RS. (The 9th wore kilts incidentally).

Of the service battalions the 15th and 16th were with the 34th Division in the north of the sector around the Point de Jour Ridge, the 11th and 12th were with the 9th Scottish were to thier right around Rouex and the Chemical Works. The 8th and 9th were with the 51st Highland Division, they ended up having a go at the Chemical Works to.

It's not had and fast but quite a lot of West Lothian men were in the 12th , but they were in all the battalions to be fair.

The advice re Tom Gordon still stands though, an injury as serious as this would have merited a mention in the West Lothian Courier.

John

My grandfather John Drew came out of the army in 1918 I think and then went back to the pits for almost the rest of his working life. He came out of service uninjured and live till he was 84 years of age.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eltoro1960
My grandfather John Drew came out of the army in 1918 I think and then went back to the pits for almost the rest of his working life. He came out of service uninjured and live till he was 84 years of age.

Sorry about causing an element of confusion, glad to hear your Grandad lived to a ripe old age.

Most of the miners in the Army were out by Christmas 1918 to February , 1919. The demand for coal was phenomenal, men on leave were told they could report to their pit and on receipt of a letter from the pit manager they would be released from the service. The 8th Royal Scots virtually ceased to exist by early 1919 due to the miners being demobbed.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rockford
out of curiosity did you find out dates, battalions etc,I have the 11th,12th 15th & 16th War Diaries for these dates.

John,

Unfortunately, the information from the Courier did not give a battalion. However, it was noted in the 4 May 1917 edition that James' mother had received news that he had been wounded and was in hospital in France. The following week's edition, on 11 May 1917, reported that his injuries were of a serious nature and that both his legs had been amputated below the kneee- it also added that he was 'progressing as well as can be expected' - I bet that was a comfort :huh: !

Tom, however, pointed out that from James medal entitlement of the BWM and Victory Medal, he must have arrived in France after 1 January 1916. I must admit that I hadn't picked up on the implication of their being no 1915 Star listed. I looked at the Long Long Trail last night and, of the Service battalions, there are a number which arrived in France at various points during 1916 - the 15th, 16th, 17th and the 19th (Labour) Battalion.

Of course, this might not really help as, without knowing when James enlisted, it is hard to know whether he was with his battalion from the beginning. Hopefully when the service records for 'T' come online, all may be revealed!

Best wishes

Brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eltoro1960

Hello Brian

I have done a bit of digging around your Grandfather service number and discovered the following.

A Pte James Irons 29614 enlisted Jan 1916 in Dundee, he was placed in the 18th (Bantam/Reserve) Battalion being 5' 1", later transferred to 16th (Macraes) then transferred again to the 2nd Battalion where he was killed in action.

A Pte Robert Burnett 29619 enlisted November 1915 in Tillicoutry and he was sent to the 17th (Bantam) Battalion and was killed in action with that battalion, he was 5' and half an inch.

Without wishing to seem insensitive, given that James lost both his legs below the knee, was he a very short man? ie 5' 2" or less, if so he probably served initially at least with the 17th (Roseberry Bantams) as part of 35 Division, which was a Bantam Division. But again it is not inconceivable that he was transferred to another battalion.

Probably as many questions as answers there but food for thought.

John

Edit enlistment date amended to 1916

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rockford

Hi John,

Thanks for the additional information - it wasn't an insensitive question, as it's clear why you were asking!

I don't know how tall Jimmy was before his injury. He was my grandfather's uncle, so the distance of a further generation makes it more difficult. I have, however, in case anyone is interested in his story, attached a photo of him taken in later life, around 1940. The one I have of him wearing the SWB is too large and I'm having difficulty resizing it, if I can get it to work, I'll replace this one.

post-21850-1247248811.jpg

The stern looking woman is my great, great grandmother, Jimmy's mother.

Best wishes

Brian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piorun

GREAT photo, Brian. Thank you for putting a face to the history we've been researching. Antony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Smith

G'day,

I am looking for information on Alan Wilson Morey who served with the 11th Battalion, The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment), I believe he enlisted on May 11th, 1915. He was a Temp. Lt.

He was awarded the MC in November 1915 for an action that took place on September 25th, 1915 and transferred out of the regiment to join the RFC in June 1916.

He was killed in action after colliding with a German aircraft in January 1918.

I would apreciate any information you may have on him whilst with the Royal Scots.

Regards,

Andrew Smith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piorun
G'day,

I am looking for information on Alan Wilson Morey who served with the 11th Battalion, The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment), I believe he enlisted on May 11th, 1915. He was a Temp. Lt.

He was awarded the MC in November 1915 for an action that took place on September 25th, 1915 and transferred out of the regiment to join the RFC in June 1916.

He was killed in action after colliding with a German aircraft in January 1918.

I would apreciate any information you may have on him whilst with the Royal Scots.

Regards,

Andrew Smith

G'Day, Andrew: I'm afraid that Major Ewing's History has no Index listing for Temp. Lt. Andrew Wilson Morey. However, the action of 11 Battalion Royal Scots on 25th September 1915 is very worthy of note and, no doubt, Lt. Morey deserved his decoration.

The action that day was part of what is generally known as the Battle of Loos. It took place over one of the dreariest, most ugly parts of France - a mining and industrial wasteland that is still depressing countryside even today. The ground is as flat as a pancake except for the slag heaps and mine-heads that afforded the Germans visual control over the entire field. 11 Bn. was part of the reserve force of 27th Brigade, 9th Division, of General Gough's I Corps. They held part of the north, or left, of the line. Attacking ahead of them was 26 and 28 Brigade, with 2nd Division to their left. The objectives were Auchy and Douvrin, with the caveat that, if Auchy was not taken, then 9th Division was to form a defensive line facing north-east on Haisnes.

The 25th September saw early success which 11 Battalion was required to follow up. However, they came under heavy shellfire and were delayed by the flood of wounded choking the communication trenches leading forward. The attack of 28th Brigade collapsed and this delayed 11 Bn. even more, as a result of which it was late in arriving at the front line. As soon as they advanced, the Bn. came under heavy fire from rifle and machine gun. The Bn. was checked at the village of Cite St.Elie but, under the leadership of Lt.Col. Dundas, it rallied and moved forward so that, by 1100 hours it managed to form a single line with 12 Bn. and reach Pekin Trench, just south of Haisnes. Although they had been fighting forward for nearly five hours, the exhausted men again attacked without benefit of any artillery support and even managed to get into the outskirts of Haisnes. This was accomplished by dint of small sections working forward in mutual support in a series of short, sharp charges (I sense that a lieutenant would be very likely to have commanded such an adventurous and daring group) but, eventually, the exposed position and strong German defence sent them to ground. Here they waited in the drenching rain. Cold, soaked, and with rifles clogged by mud, the survivors of 11 Bn. soon found themselves in a desperate position as the Germans began to advance from Haisnes. They were unsupported on either flank but, by cool rear-guard action, they managed to fight their way back to Fosse Alley Trench and inflicted such heavy losses upon their attackers that they temporarily checked the German advance by nightfall. 11 Royal Scots continued to fight gallantly throughout the following day as the Germans piled more and more pressure on the collapsing British front. By the time the Battle of Loos was considered over on 28th September, 11 Battalion Royal Scots had lost five Officers killed, including the C.O., and three wounded and three hundred and seventy Other Ranks killed, wounded and missing.

I'm afraid that's all I can tell you, Andrew, except to note that my wife's uncle also fought in that battle with 7 Bn. Cameron Highlanders. They only had seventy men answer roll call after it was over.

There is no doubt that Lt. Morey was a very brave young man.

Kindest regards, Antony.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Smith

G'day Antony,

Thank you so much for the information. Lt Morey was a Rhodes Scholar, the family arrived in England in 1914 for him to take up his place.

He became a Doctor but as fate would have it he never had the opportunity to practice as stated earlier he was killed in action in 1918.

I have written to his niece regarding his MC citation which I have reproduced here;

Temporary Lieutenant Alan Wilson Morey,

llth Battalion, The Royal Scots ..(Lothian Regiment).

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty during the action of 25th September,

1915. He volunteered to go across the open between the opposing lines to obtain information,

and, although wounded in the shoulder, both sent in a written report and went a

long way to make a personal report to his Brigadier, before having his wound dressed.

Thanks again,

Andrew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Smith

G'day Antony,

If possible could you tell me where the battalion was in the line after landing in France in May 1915 up until the madness at Loos in September.

Regards,

Andrew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piorun

G'day, Andrew: 11th Royal Scots relieved 8th Royal Scots in the trenches behind Festubert on June 30th 1915. It was not involved in any notable battle but remained in action and learning the ropes of trench warfare and the control of no-man's land. By the beginning of September, 11 and 12 RS occupied a sector of trenches east of Vermelles from where they would advance into the murder of Loos on 25th September. Ewing's History offers no further specific detail of 11RS actions or locations between May and September. Yours, Antony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Andrew Smith

Thanks Again Antony you have been a great help.

Andrew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rksimpson

Hi

I am wondering if anyone can help

I have 2 people in the Royal Scots I would like more info on.

1. Peter McIntosh 15822 11th Btn KIA 25/04/1916 and buried at Rifle House Cemetery, and info on him or his regiment on the day he was killed as to what was going on would be great.

2. My Grandfather William Simpson 15809 , was in the 12th but according to MIC transferred to 3rd, dont know when. Would it be better to contact the Royal Scots museum for him?

Have looked at Long Long Trail but that is only general

thanks

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eltoro1960

The 11th Royal Scots were at Ploegsteert, engaged in bombing practice and supplying men for working parties, the war diary entry for the 24th April states that 4 (I think hard to read) men were wounded and one killed whilst on a working party,he is not named but this would be Peter.

John

Edit : Peters will is held at the National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh the reference is SC70/8/244/33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rksimpson

Hi John

Thanks for the reply

Is it possible to get a copy of that page?

Also forgive my lack of knowledge but could you expain to me what that means?

I presume by bombing practice they mean throwing grenades at German trenches and what were the working parties for- renewing/building trenches or other things?

thanks

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eltoro1960
Hi John

Thanks for the reply

Is it possible to get a copy of that page?

Also forgive my lack of knowledge but could you expain to me what that means?

I presume by bombing practice they mean throwing grenades at German trenches and what were the working parties for- renewing/building trenches or other things?

thanks

Robert

Hi Robert if you PM me your email I will send you the page. Bombing practice, does indeed mean grenades and trench clearing. Work parties could be almost anything , wiring, digging , humphing wood etc etc. Hated by squaddies especially if they were 'resting'/

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rksimpson

Hi

Would anyone have a copy of SDGW and be able to look up Peter McIntosh mentioned above. I would like to see if what is recorded there matches up with what I have

thanks for your time

Robert

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
katewalters

Hi Alan,

My great grandad was

Richard James Walters 1884-1951

Enlisted: 1st Oct 1903 in Manchester

Royals Scots 2nd Battalion

Regimental Number: 8627

Rank on Discharge: Warrant Officer (Class II) RQMS

I believe 2nd battalion were part of the 3rd division, although it's been a while since I looked at this, so taking me a while to remember all the lingo!

Amazingly he survived the war, although I think he was probably working hidden away from the front line with HQ staff. Is there any mention of him in your records? Or any suggestions as to how far away from the action HQ were usually based?

Thanks,

Kate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Abbott

I have the following Regimental history:-

The Royal Scots 1914-1919 by Major J Ewing (Edinburgh, Oliver & Boyd, 1925)

Regards,

Alan.

Hi Alan,

One of my ancestors was reportedly KIA at the 2nd Battle of Gaza on 19th April 1917 whilst serving with the 1/7th Royal Scots.

Namely, PTE 300845 Thomas Abbott (Thomas Smith Abbott was his full name)

Is there anything in the book that would mention the manner in how he or others lost their lives on that day?

Many thanks.

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WilliamRev

Hi Ron

I don't think that Alan has been active on the forum recently, but I have a copy of Major Ewing's History of the Royal Scots 1914-19. There are five pages describing the action which you mention: if you e-mail me at william"at"williamrevels.com (putting @ instead of "at"), then I can e-mail you scans of the relevant pages, if that would help.

William

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ron Abbott

Hi Ron

I don't think that Alan has been active on the forum recently, but I have a copy of Major Ewing's History of the Royal Scots 1914-19. There are five pages describing the action which you mention: if you e-mail me at william"at"williamrevels.com (putting @ instead of "at"), then I can e-mail you scans of the relevant pages, if that would help.

William

Many thanks William. I have emailed you.

Ron

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...