KIRKY Posted 14 January , 2004 Share Posted 14 January , 2004 Hi Since visiting the Somme I have always walked over to Leipzig Redoubt to the quarry. Only 5 years ago it looked like a quarry but it seems to be slowly filling in. Anyone know what fate awaits it? TK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 I don't think they are filling it in, as it still used in the shooting season. They took the trees down about 4/5 years ago, which changed it dramatically, and I suspect it is showing signs of erosion, as the trees no longer protect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 This is a picture of it circa September 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Wow, that has changed a bit since I last saw it. I remember a good stand of trees around it. But as Paul says, if they've been chopped down it will make the area look smaller and speed up the natural process of erosion I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 I will be walking around the area one Saturday in late Feb and be taking photos regarding the 48th Div & 143 Brigade attack there on 18 August, 1916. If you want any pictures let me know. Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 15 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Thanks for the offer but I will be there 11 March. Hows the book coming along? Hope you are well. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 That's it?? Good grief, I've always pictured it as being a hell of a lot bigger for some reason. This is where signaller Eric Cowling sheltered in a German toilet whilst the 1st Wilts. attacked Hindenburg Trench. Not much of a bite, more of a gumless toothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 It does seem small. I think, if memory serves, the track passes through the redoubt, with some more of the original quarry on the right as you pass through (to the right of the photograph and just out of shot). Is that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Here's another view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Which way is up? Are we looking at it from the West here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Ah!! So far as I can recall these two photos were taken AFTER I had passed the redoubt going towards Thiepval. From the Lonsdale Cemetary, you turn right on to a track which takes you past the redoubt, then Nab Valley on your right, all the time going NNE to Thiepval. I hope that is it; I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 The second photo above was taken with the Thiepval Memorial behind the photographer - the trees in the background are Authuille Wood. It is much larger than it appears on this photo, and part is out of view to the right. You could lose a few platoons of men easily inside this 'hole' - regardless of the trench system that once ran around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 Thanks Burlington I plan to visit this site in July 2004 to follow the Lonsdales trail as shown in the Thiepval,Somme book by Paul.The photo in there looks a little different from now. I will take a copy of your photos ,if you dont mind, to help me when I'm there. Regards Spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 15 January , 2004 Share Posted 15 January , 2004 The Leipzig Redoubt, or the Granatloch as it is known in my research is an amazing place to stand. If you look around you at the slope in the terrain toward Authuille Wood it is easy to see why it was such a desirable piece of land. Also, if you stand on the old French/British front and look up it makes you feel as if the old German position completely dominated your every movement and it made me feel that if I was ordered to attack uphill against a spot I could not clearly make out that my chances were not that good in capturing it. Ralph P.S. Piece of trivia: What German unit captured the Leipzig redoubt after being relinqished during the initial German advance, and in what month and year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burlington Posted 16 January , 2004 Share Posted 16 January , 2004 I will take a copy of your photos ,if you dont mind, to help me when I'm there. Spike Can you take the photos direct from the forum site or shall I email you copies? Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 16 January , 2004 Share Posted 16 January , 2004 This is the view "Granatloch" (Leipzig Redoubt) to the west. You see the elevated position from which the Germans dominated the terrain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Burlington-thanks for the offer, I have taken the photos from the site ,if thats ok with you.I wouldn't mind a copy via e mail(as the site resizes and so forth). Sorry I've been so long replying -you can't get on my computer at weekends for the kids Little darlings! Email address is...... spike@kjohnstone10764.fsnet.co.uk Thanks, Spike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 The Leipzig Redoubt, or the Granatloch as it is known in my research is an amazing place to stand. If you look around you at the slope in the terrain toward Authuille Wood it is easy to see why it was such a desirable piece of land. Also if you look toward Serre Road Cemetery #2, it’s the really big one, you can just see the Cross of Sacrifices and the buildings at the back of it. Best way to find it is to use binoculars and scan the far ridgeline. If you know how to use a compass and map (and have them with you) it will help. Any way, once you find the cross you can plainly see that any German Forward Observer could call and direct artillery fire on any attacker from this point north to the Quadrilateral Redoubt (I think that’s it’s name) with ease. Like wise the other supporting strong points, like the Schwaben Readout could cover the approaches to Leipzig with machine gun fire. Of course the converse is also true, Leipzig could cover the other positions as well. Mutually supporting positions, damn good idea for a defense. A note about the size of the Leipzig Redoubt; in most places the quarry comes right up to the edge of the high grass. I found this out the hard way during my first trip out to see the site close up. It was a couple of years ago, just after the fall harvest, and I was walking along the edge of the high grass. Some game birds flew up a couple of yards in front on me and in my surprise I took a step to my right and down I went. I didn’t fall far as all the briars, thorns and brambles lent a helping hand to stop my decent but I quickly developed a healthy respect for steep sided holes and high grass. Cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph J. Whitehead Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 P.S. Piece of trivia: What German unit captured the Leipzig redoubt after being relinqished during the initial German advance, and in what month and year? Ok everyone, what are the guesses? I will provide the details in a short time. Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 20 January , 2004 Share Posted 20 January , 2004 Jon, You just mixed up "Leipzig Redoubt"="Granatloch" at Thiepval with "Quadrilateral"="Heidenkopf" at Serre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 It was a couple of years ago, just after the fall harvest, and I was walking along the edge of the high grass. Some game birds flew up a couple of yards in front on me and in my surprise I took a step to my right and down I went. I didn’t fall far as all the briars, thorns and brambles lent a helping hand to stop my decent but I quickly developed a healthy respect for steep sided holes and high grass. Cheers, Jon Hello Jon,saw you at Varlet Farm. Glad to know I am not the only klutz on the Western Front. In 1997 2d trip to Somme with my son, I was walking into Lochnagar Crater, there were no signs then saying not to. Well it has lots of thorns & loose gravel and I got to going too fast, only thing to do was go down, well I did and rolled on down at an impressive rate of speed! I tore my ass up, skinned up, beat up etc. Paul had the camera, looked up at him, "Did you get a picture boy?" Well hell no he didn't, just sat there laughing at his old Dad! As for compass & map, despite the best efforts of the US Army to make a radio operator of me, compass & map did not take + listening ot morse 7 or so hours a day was unbelievable. I had graduated from law school and passed the bar so I escaped one day, went to Ft Knox JAG office, they sprung me & sent me to typist school part time, the rest of the time I did their civil work for them, wills , collection cases etc, quite a deal for all of us, ended up 71H in Germany, better than 05B20 in VietNam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 Jon, You just mixed up "Leipzig Redoubt"="Granatloch" at Thiepval with "Quadrilateral"="Heidenkopf" at Serre Sorry egbert, and everyone else, if I grabbled my message. My intent was/is to say that from the Leipzig (Granatloch) Redoubt a forward observer could direct fire on almost any point from Thiepval north to the Quadrilateral (Heidenkopf) Redoubt near Serre. Cheers, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 ...into Lochnagar Crater, ... I got to going too fast, ... I did and rolled on down at an impressive rate of speed! As for compass & map, despite the best efforts of the US Army to make a radio operator of me, compass & map did not take + listening ot morse 7 or so hours a day was unbelievable. Paul G, In Lynn McDonald's "Somme" she mentioned a whole platoon of Tommies that inadvertently went down into Lochnagar Crater very much like you did, except, they started their unplanned decent with a running jump! Can you even imagine doing it that way!!? As I am the one who mentioned the compass and map method of locating the Serre Road Cemetery Cross of Sacrifice from Leipzig I’ll pull out one of my modern military maps of the Somme region and do a azimuth bearing for y’all. If my memory does not fail me I’ll do that tonight when I get home from work and post it tomorrow. Sorry for the projected delay but sense the move we haven yet to hook up to the Internet at home. Lastly; Yes Paul I remember that great night at Varlet Farm with you and all the other Baker's Pals who were able to attend! It was one of the highlights of my three-year stay in Europe. Jon P.S. Morse code! You’re showing your age, good thing a fine whiskey gets better as time passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 21 January , 2004 Share Posted 21 January , 2004 P.S. Morse code! You’re showing your age, good thing a fine whiskey gets better as time passes. It's so twoo as Madeline Kahn said in Blazing Saddles! I have no clue why we needed to know morse because eventually you operated a radio teletype or a field radio, this was 1967. Why on earth were we tortured with morse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somme1916 Posted 23 January , 2004 Share Posted 23 January , 2004 Sorry for the delay in publishing the compass bearing for Serre Rd Cem #2 (Quadrilateral) from the Leipzig Redoubt, Thiepval. The military map I have is from 1978 so the magnetic pull of the North Pole has shifted sense then. I’m afraid I no longer know what the rate of change is so I can’t even make a guess at what a true compass bearing from the Leipzig to the Quadrilateral would be today. With all that said; the grid azimuth (degrees bearing as they are on the map) from Leipzig to Quadrilateral is 341 degrees. For this particular map sheet to convert the grid azimuth to a magnetic azimuth (compass bearing) you add 4 degrees. This makes the magnetic compass bearing (from 1978) 345 degrees. Even with the magnetic Pole shifting that should be good enough get you close to the Serre Rd Cem Cross. Another way to narrow the search for the Quadrilateral from Leipzig is to find the church tower in Beaumont-Hamel. Once you have your eyes on the tower begin raising them up to the ridgeline that hides Serre Rd from view. Once your looking at the ridgeline the cross and the two building that flank it should be in sight, maybe a little to the right. Again binoculars help tremendously. If you’re using a pair with a narrow field of view you may have to scan a little to the right to find the cross. Once you have it in sight you will see how easily the Germans totally dominated this area, from many different angles, on 1 July 1916. I know some of you think I’m nuts but I think to fully understand how a battle was fought a person needs to have some understanding what role terrain play. This goes for other things like weather, troop fatigue, morale etc. Side note, I'm finally on line at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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