delta Posted 7 June , 2008 Share Posted 7 June , 2008 Brilliant - well done S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17tankman Posted 19 June , 2008 Share Posted 19 June , 2008 Delta You wanted any early tank men have found another medal that you may be interested in for your list. Lt E V Colley he was in B Battalion and DOW on 23/08/1917 so must have been an early tanker - is he on your list??? Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 30 August , 2008 Share Posted 30 August , 2008 Paperback seen today in Waterstone's - £8.99, but part of their 3 for the price of 2 offer, so you can buy a book for the other half and still feel virtuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 5 October , 2008 Share Posted 5 October , 2008 Paperback seen today in Waterstone's - £8.99, but part of their 3 for the price of 2 offer, so you can buy a book for the other half and still feel virtuous. Whilst I agree with most that Christy Campbell's book Band of Brigands" is an enjoyable read I am concerned wth his description of George Macpherson's alleged suicide. I e-mailed him for his source for this account but received no reply. It is unfortunate that he does not number his references in the text. You have to note the page and guess if the reference refers to the account. I cannot find Christy's account in either the National Archives nor the Bovington Archives. I hope to look at the Holford-Walker papers that are now lodged in the Army Museum shortly. My own re-examination of George's alleged suicide makes me less confident that it took place. Colin Hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 5 October , 2008 Share Posted 5 October , 2008 Christy Campbell will be speaking on Band of Brigands at the Tank Museum on Oct 23. See this link and scroll to end of page for details. http://www.tankmuseum.org/ixbin/indexplus?...ents_diary.html With best wishes, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 8 October , 2008 Share Posted 8 October , 2008 Christy Campbell will be speaking on Band of Brigands at the Tank Museum on Oct 23. See this link and scroll to end of page for details. http://www.tankmuseum.org/ixbin/indexplus?...ents_diary.html With best wishes, David Dear David, I hope he takes the opportunity during the lecture or someone asks a question afterwards as to the source of his specific description of George Macpherson's alleged suicide since it is somewhat different from both Trevor Pidgeon's (ref. Wardle) & Peter Hart's (ref.Osbourne) accounts. I look forward to reading someone's transcription of his answer. Unfortunately Bovington is a bit distant from where I live so I can't attend. Colin Hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendellers Posted 8 October , 2008 Share Posted 8 October , 2008 I bought the paperback on Saturday from Tesco for £3.86 along with Forgotten voices of the Somme at £9.99- looking forward to reading both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 8 October , 2008 Share Posted 8 October , 2008 Colin - I will be there; if he touches on Macpherson, I'll ask him a question on your behalf. What exactly is your issue Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 9 October , 2008 Share Posted 9 October , 2008 "...Trevor Pidgeon's (ref. Wardle) & Peter Hart's (ref.Osbourne) accounts..." Colin, Could you explain a bit more about the views of the above, and from which books by those authors. As Stephen suggests it would be as well to go fully briefed. My wife and I hope to be there, too. With best wishes, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 16 October , 2008 Share Posted 16 October , 2008 Colin - I will be there; if he touches on Macpherson, I'll ask him a question on your behalf. What exactly is your issue Stephen Thanks, Steven. Looking forward to the answer. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 16 October , 2008 Share Posted 16 October , 2008 "...Trevor Pidgeon's (ref. Wardle) & Peter Hart's (ref.Osbourne) accounts..." Colin, Could you explain a bit more about the views of the above, and from which books by those authors. As Stephen suggests it would be as well to go fully briefed. My wife and I hope to be there, too. With best wishes, David M.K. Wardle was GSO3 6th Div. in Chimpanzee Valley & Osbourne was Brigadier Gen 16th Bgde (6th Division) at his Quarry HQ, Wedge Wood. Both were contacted by the official historian in the 1930s & they sent him comments. Their letters are in the file CAB 45/136 at the Imperial War Museum. They are dated 1934 & 1935 respectively. Wardle (M.K. not A.K.) is the source of Trevor Pidgeon's account. However, he seems to have missed Osbourne's letter. Peter Hart quotes Osbourne's account in his book "The Somme" p. 404.(he acknowledges that it was picked up by a PhD student, Mr Hammond). I have read both of their letters. I believe that Wardle may have received his information from Osbourne's HQ. Hence Osbourne is the probable source of all the allegation of suicide. Col. Swinton was at GHQ at the time ( see "Eyewitness") & may have also been told. He returned to England where he probably informed Basil Henriques of the allegation (see "Indiscretions of a Warden" by Henriques). Infact Osbourne makes a number of mistakes in describing what happened to the tanks that day. This is just one of the reasons, amongst a number of others, why I am revisiting the incident and adopting an agnostic position. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 16 October , 2008 Share Posted 16 October , 2008 Colin - I will be there; if he touches on Macpherson, I'll ask him a question on your behalf. What exactly is your issue Stephen Sorry, Stephen, I didn't register your second sentence- a senior moment! Campbell's description of Macpherson's suicide is so different from all the other descriptions (Pidgeon & Hart in particular) that I e-mailed him as to the source of his account. He did not reply. At the moment I am inclined to believe it is somewhat imaginative BUT I may be wrong. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 16 October , 2008 Share Posted 16 October , 2008 Colin, Thanks for the details. I have looked up the ref. in Hart, The Somme, p.404 and compared it with Campbell, Band of Brigands, p. 203. I see what you mean about the absence of a reference for his description of Macpherson's suicide. There is nothing in the footnotes to show where he got the details to build this account: "He rose from his bunk, retrieved his sidearm, went outside the tent and shot himself." That account does not tie up with Osbourne's account: "while the subaltern in charge was waiting for a minute while I heard another officer's report, he shot himself...", see Hart, The Somme, p. 404. Osbourne does not say that he saw the suicide but he clearly implies that it happened near him and makes no reference to a CCS. There is quite a difference between hanging around waiting to see the Brig. and wandering off to shoot oneself and being in a hospital bed and getting up, finding the pistol and doing the deed. Where does the idea (Campbell, p. 203) that Macpherson was taken wounded from his tank to the CCS come from? I note that Macpherson, Osbourne and Dawson are not mentioned in the index of Glanfield, The Devil's Chariots. With best wishes, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 17 October , 2008 Share Posted 17 October , 2008 Colin, Thanks for the details. I have looked up the ref. in Hart, The Somme, p.404 and compared it with Christy, Band of Brigands, p. 203. I see what you mean about the absence of a reference for his description of Macpherson's suicide. There is nothing in the footnotes to show where he got the details to build this account: "He rose from his bunk, retrieved his sidearm, went outside the tent and shot himself." That account does not tie up with Osbourne's account: "while the subaltern in charge was waiting for a minute while I heard another officer's report, he shot himself...", see Hart, The Somme, p. 404. Osbourne does not say that he saw the suicide but he clearly implies that it happened near him and makes no reference to a CCS. There is quite a difference between hanging around waiting to see the Brig. and wandering off to shoot oneself and being in a hospital bed and getting up, finding the pistol and doing the deed. Where does the idea (Christy, p. 203) that Macpherson was taken wounded from his tank to the CCS come from? I note that Macpherson, Osbourne and Dawson are not mentioned in the index of Glanfield, The Devil's Chariots. With best wishes, David Dear David, Exactly!! Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 17 October , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 October , 2008 This is quite intriguing! I see that Christy has not been logged onto the forum since 16th May, so is probably unaware of this question having arisen. Perhaps one of those who've looked into this question could send him an email via his forum Profile and once alerted maybe he will post some further details from his research here. ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Seymour Posted 18 October , 2008 Share Posted 18 October , 2008 Peter Hart, The Somme, p. 404 says that Macpherson did not die at once and was taken to a CCS where he expired. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 18 October , 2008 Share Posted 18 October , 2008 This is quite intriguing! I see that Christy has not been logged onto the forum since 16th May, so is probably unaware of this question having arisen. Perhaps one of those who've looked into this question could send him an email via his forum Profile and once alerted maybe he will post some further details from his research here. ciao, GAC I did e-mail Christy Campbell having been given his address by his agent. My first e-mail to him simply asked if he would mind me contacting him on the topic of the tanks. His reply seemed welcoming. So I sent him a second e-mail, I hope tactfully written, to enquire as to the source of his account of George's death. I received no reply. Then I discovered your correspondence in the Great War Forum. I had earlier engaged in a little correspondence on this topic under the heading "George Macpherson". Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 1 November , 2008 Share Posted 1 November , 2008 Thanks, Steven. Looking forward to the answer. Colin Stephen, did you attend Christy Campbell's lecture? Any comment about George Macpherson's alleged suicide?> Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 1 November , 2008 Share Posted 1 November , 2008 Tesco have this in there 2 of £7 section (well, they do in Elgin) - along with 'Somme Mud' - for those Pals that may not have these books. Roxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 1 November , 2008 Share Posted 1 November , 2008 Nothing about Macpherson - and nothing much about any of the original crews, I am afraid to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 1 November , 2008 Share Posted 1 November , 2008 Just bought this in Tesco today for £3.97, got to be a good buy me thinks. For went my beer to buy this so it had better be good! Regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillgorilla Posted 2 November , 2008 Share Posted 2 November , 2008 An interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin.hardy35 Posted 2 November , 2008 Share Posted 2 November , 2008 Nothing about Macpherson - and nothing much about any of the original crews, I am afraid to say. Stephen, Thanks anyway. Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 7 November , 2008 Share Posted 7 November , 2008 Just bought this in Tesco today for £3.97, got to be a good buy me thinks. For went my beer to buy this so it had better be good! Regards Arm I can beat that: I just bought it in my local Tesco for £3.50 (it was on a 2 for £7 offer, so Emily got a book, too). £3.86 if bought separately. And I got a beer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 7 November , 2008 Share Posted 7 November , 2008 Hundred pages in and really enjoying it. Mind 'ain't half got a thirst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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