Casualty Reporting Question

[jim_davies]

This may seem like a stupid question, but please bear with me.

How were the date of death for men killed or especially missing in action recorded. For example if a battalion went into action on the 1st and remained pretty heavily engaged until the 3rd or 4th of the month, there probably wasn't much time to go around sorting out exactly who was killed or missing and when it occurred. So how was it decided ?

So when the battalion finally discovered that Pte T Atkins who was missing in action, was in fact deceased which date would they use ? The date the battalion first went into action, the last day, or was an inquiry held (not likely considering the numbers involved) to determine the most likely day he fell ?

The reason I'm asking is concerning the assault upon Hill 60, Gallipoli in which my great-great uncle Charlie Jarvis fell. Yes I know I'm flogging a dead horse with this, but I'm try to search out all the angles !

Apparently at 5.00pm, August 27, 1915 the Connaught Rangers launched their attack coming under heavy fire sufferring heavy losses. The attack progressed, and resulted in hand-to-hand action within the Turkish position. This lasted throughout the night, and included several Turkish counter-attacks which eventually forced the Rangers to give up their gains. The battalion was relieved early the next morning around 7-8am. Westlake's "British Battalions at Gallipoli" gives a total of 2 officers and 152 other ranks killed, wounded & missing.

So far I've been able to identify 45 men of the Rangers on the CWGC records as died on 27 or 28 August, (no access to Soldiers Died). The problem is only 7 men (including Charlie) are on the 27th, but there's 28 men on the the 28th. So given the confusion of casualty reporting why have some men killed on the 27th and others on the 28th ? While it's not the full figure it

Can we assume Charlie and the other lads killed on the 27th died earlier in the attack, thereby setting them apart from their comrades ?

Any insight on either how casualties were reported or the fighting for Hill 60 would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Jim.

[Alan Lines]

Jim,

The following is from the Soldiers Died CD for the 5th Connaught Rangers.

26/8/15.................. 1 D.O.W

27/8/15.... 6 K.I.A .. 1 D.O.W

28/8/15... 30 K.I.A... 6 D.O.W... 2 DIED

29/8/15................... 2 D.O.W

30/8/15 .................. 2 D.O.W

I don't know how the dates were determined but the War Diary might help. It's in the Public Records Office at Kew, London. Reference no. WO-95-4296. If the fighting went on through the night then it is unlikely that you will ever find out exactly when he was killed. but the diary should give you an idea at least when the heaviest fighting took place and possibly when it quietened down.

Even in quiet times casualty reporting wasn't always perfect (as you would expect) Research will always throw up conflicting dates. Last week I was reading about a trench raid in which six men were killed. They were all killed on the 11th but are listed on Soldiers Died and with the CWGC as the 12th .

[BMoorhouse]

Jim,

From my experience of researching casualties there are a number of methods used to determine how and when soldiers died.

When units came out of combat there would usually be a roll call, and information sought on any people not accounted for. The likelihood is that the split between the two dates is fairly accurate, as men in the soldiers sections that saw what happened to their friends would have been able to give fairly detailed descriptions.

Have you checked to see whether a battalion roll still exists. If it does you might get more information from it. Often they include details of the cause of injury/death - if you have those then it is likely that someone witnessed what happened - or found the deceased afterwards and was able to work out when he died. Otherwise look at personal accounts from other soldiers in the engagement - many include details of friends etc.

I have researched a battalion history for the 7th Somersets and have been surprised by the high degree of accuracy in most casualty reporting. It does not mean that mistakes weren't made, or that when fighting became chaotic (such as when a battalion was overrun in a big offensive) that information was not availible.

Good luck in your search.

Brendon Moorhouse.

[jim_davies]

Alan & Brendon,

Thanks for the repsonses, as you can probably tell I have a little too much time on my hands and at a loss for where to go next.

Brendon-I'm not sure where I'd find a battalion roll, but have ordered a history of the battalion written by the c/o who served at Gallipoli. It will apparently be a couple of weeks before it arrives, but maybe it'll shed some light on it.

Alan, thanks for the Soldiers Died info, Charlie is one of those KIA on the 27th. I don't have access to the War Diary or London (being on the other side of the pond), but have Westlake's great book on battalions at Gallipoli. My understanding is he used primary sources including the war diary.

This forum and its many helpful experts have been wonderful. Especially as when I first started my inquires into the family's service during the great war I knew next to nothing about anything. Now while being far from an expert I can at least put together the basics and have some idea of what happened. I'm slowing realizing that I won't get to know everything I want to, but the feeling when you fit one small piece of the puzzle into place makes all the dead ends worthwhile.

I still have a number of brothers and cousins to my great-grandfathers (and one grandfather) to explore, fortunately they unlike L/Clp Charles Jarvis and Clp George Boyall survived the war. Although it is somewhat disconcerting that more info is readily available for the fallen.

All the best in your research,

Jim

[Alan Lines]

Jim

You can order copies from the War Diary from the Public Records Office. Try www.pro.gov.uk It's pot luck as to how much will be written in there though.

Good luck with the research

Al