MelPack Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Hello I would appreciate any information that can be provided on this unit. The war diary has not survived and the only details that I have are from the main site: "85 Second Army A 12-inch howitzer battery of 2 guns" Any details of when the unit first entered F&F and where it was deployed would be great. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Mel. 85 SB went out to the Western front in May 1916 joining XIII corps HA 3/June 1916 at the Somme, joining 31 HAG on 8/June 1916. Their followed some 12 other attachments with assorted HAG’s and Corps until they ended up attached to 18 HAG in April 1918 and became army troops in May 1918. This 5 months period to the Oct 1918 is the longest diary available for them at WO95/540. During this period a detachment from 85SB manned captured 7.7cm field guns as it was so difficult to move their own heavy guns forward quickly enough following the German retreat. In July 1917 as part of 90 HAG they were in action at third Ypres positioned at VLAMERTINGHE and in Aug Ypres itself An effective compliment in Aug 1916 of 140 men inclusive of 5 Officers and 6 Serjeants manning their 2 x12 in Hows on railway mountings (as specified in the 90 HAG diary) but shown as on road mountings as per the Allocations from DOE, so a slight anomaly there which needs clarifying from other sources. Rgds Paul PS There is actually a diary at the IWM 'Diary 85th Battery RGA' with the sub title of 'register of rounds fired' covering 1916-1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 8 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Paul That is superb information. It didn't occur to me to check the IWM as opposed to the NA. Many thanks. Regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 I was confused on this as well with some sources stating 85th SB RGA were equipped with 12" howitzers in some references and 12" guns in others. Thanks for the info on the war diary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Actually Squirrel Ive just realised I have a photo of them, its a well known photo that confirms which armament for definate but very difficult to spot which battery its of. Another forum member pointed it out to me some time ago so only fair to wait and see if he chips in. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 8 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Paul Could you double check the NA reference -all I can identify from the WO 95/540 reference are the following: WO 95/540 18 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery 1915 May - 1918 Oct. WO 95/540 117 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Nov. - Dec. WO 95/540 180 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1916 Oct. - 1918 Feb. WO 95/540 218 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 May - 1918 Jan. WO 95/540 236 Siege Battery Royal Garrison Artillery 1917 Apr. - 1918 Feb. Thanks. regards Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 There is a photo in the Osprey series book on British heavy artillery which is captioned as being 85th Siege but it is not dated and the equipment could have changed as they moved. IIRC, the battery gun detachments moved but the guns stayed where they were later in the war. Much easier than toing and froing with heavy guns when brigades and batteries moved between brigades, groups, divisions, corps and armies. Perhaps that's another reason for the apparent confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 8 October , 2007 Share Posted 8 October , 2007 Thats correct Mel, its the 18 Brigade one for HAG (and HABde) always substitute Brigade when looking up in the NA catalogue. rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambton Posted 12 October , 2007 Share Posted 12 October , 2007 Actually Squirrel Ive just realised I have a photo of them, its a well known photo that confirms which armament for definate but very difficult to spot which battery its of. Another forum member pointed it out to me some time ago so only fair to wait and see if he chips in. Rgds Good morning from Canada, I was browsing the web and found your quote and threads of others regarding the 85th seige battery. As I have just learned that my grandfather was indeed a member of the gun crews my interest was piqued. Is it possible to see your picture(s) of the gun(s)? I would appreciate anything else you woud share about this unit. Lambton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest McNeil Posted 21 March , 2008 Share Posted 21 March , 2008 Hi all My Grandfather was a driver att.85th Siege Battery RASC (Army form Z21) and qualified for 1914 Star and his entry to France was 13-11-14 (medal card) Appart from that no other information of his deployment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11kilo Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 Trying to work out if the 85th Siege Battery RGA were armed with 12 inch railway or road guns is proving to be tricky. "British Artillery Weapons & Ammunition 1914-1918" (I. V. Hogg & L.F. Thurston; London 1972) states that the first time the 12 inch road howitzer was used in anger was in August 1916 on the Somme, but we know that the 85th Siege Battery was in action with their 12 inch howitzers already in June 1916 and supported the attack on 1 July 1916. The 12 inch railway howitzer was in service in France from March 1916 (Wiki). This means that we can assume one of two things, the 85th were armed with railway guns or Hogg was wrong! Hogg being one of the foremost experts on British Artillery, I am leaning towards him being right. Someone asked for photos, here are a couple: Road: I believe it is a 12 inch based on the large steel holdfast (a box filled with 22 tons of earth that was placed to counteract the kick of firing). Rail: several here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_12-inch_railway_howitzer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 This is an record for 85 Siege Battery from WO95-5494 Allocation Units Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11kilo Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 Further to my last post, I think we can now say for certain that they were armed with 12 inch Railway howitzers. History of the Royal Regiment of Artillery: Western Front 1914-1914 (Farndale) gives an order of battle of the artillery supporting the attack on 1 July 1916 and does not mention any 12 inch road artillery, but does confirm 12 x 12 inch railway guns. "Field artillery: 808 18-pounder guns for wire-cutting with shrapnel and bombarding troops in the open, 202 4.5-inch howitzers. Heavy artillery: 32 4.7-inch guns for counter-battery fire, 128 60-pounder guns for counter-battery fire, 20 6-inch guns for wire-cutting and counter-battery fire, 1 9.2-inch railway gun, 1 12-inch railway gun, 104 6-inch howitzers, 64 8-inch howitzers, 60 9.2-inch howitzers, 11 12-inch railway howitzers. Six 15-inch howitzers, 288 2-inch medium mortars and 28 heavy trench mortars were reserved for wire cutting. The French supplied 60 75 mm guns (gas shell only), twenty-four 120 mm guns, sixteen 220 mm howitzers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11kilo Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 (edited) Ha ha, OK now I feel like a fool because our posts crossed and it clearly says "Road" in the left hand column. What is the word after "Road"? Looks like "Mtgs", which I'm guessing means "mountings". So now we can confirm that they were armed with the Road version of the 12 inch howitzers and both Hogg and Farndale were incorrect (which is very surprising since one is the foremost expert in British Artillery weapons and the other the official regimental history for the RA) Edited 8 January , 2022 by 11kilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ororkep Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 (edited) Road Mountings. The evidence for Road as opposed to rail is overwhelming in all but one of the HAG war WD's and Corps WD's that 85 SB came under. Edited 8 January , 2022 by ororkep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11kilo Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 Brilliant, thank you very much ororkep! I will now sleep soundly tonight now that we've got to the bottom of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 This is a list of Railway Artillery Siege Batteries which I compiled from the Index to Units of the Royal Artillery in the Order of Battle of British Armies in France for December 1917 - no 85 Siege Battery which helps support WO95-5494 Allocation Units. Railway Artillery - Northumbrian Gunner meanderings - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org) 14 minutes ago, 11kilo said: So now we can confirm that they were armed with the Road version of the 12 inch howitzers and both Hogg and Farndale were incorrect (which is very surprising since one is the foremost expert in British Artillery weapons and the other the official regimental history for the RA. Hogg being incorrect is surprising, unfortunately one does come across anomalies with Farndale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11kilo Posted 8 January , 2022 Share Posted 8 January , 2022 Thank you Ian, much appreciated. As a side note I have been following your blog for almost as many years as this thread has been dormant! Keep up the good work, as an ex-gunner I am often dropping in for a read. Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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