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stevefogs

6th Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers

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stevefogs

First of all thank you all out there for replying to my last two messages! I am still very new to all this, but what a website!

I am researching information on a soldier for a very good friend of mine, and to be honest i am struggling at the moment. So if anyone out there can help it would be fantastic. I am searching for information on Private 6724 Henry Livingstone Phillipson of the 6th Battalion Northumberland fusiliers, who died from his wounds in the UK on February 14th 1917.

I know that Henry won the military medal, but alas my friend, who's great grandfather he was has no information on where,when,and why he won it. Information on the battalions positions and actions around that time would also be very useful. Thanks once again to everyone for supporting this fantastic website, and for the help that everyone gives.

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Graham Stewart

This is a funny one, beause the CWGC has him buried in Chester-le-Street as serving with the 6th Bn, and yet Soldiers Died has him included in the roll of the 10th Battalion's killed and died?? To cap it all the 1/6th Bn War Diary, which does include substantial lists of casualties doen't have him listed either, so my conclusion is that he may have been transferred out of the 1/6th Bn to the 10th Bn and was badly wounded with them. However I haven't seen the relevant Medal Roll Sheet to confirm or deny this transfer.

Graham.

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Ryegate

Graham

These are his details:

Name: PHILLIPSON, Henry Livingstone

Regiment, Corps etc.: Northumberland Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 10th Battalion.

Last name: Phillipson

First name(s): Henry Livingstone

Initials: H

Birthplace: Haydon Bridge, Northumberland

Enlisted: Chester-Le-Street, Durham

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 6724

Date died: 14 February 1917

How died: Died of wounds

Theatre of war: Home

Supplementary Notes: M.M

Regards

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stevefogs
This is a funny one, beause the CWGC has him buried in Chester-le-Street as serving with the 6th Bn, and yet Soldiers Died has him included in the roll of the 10th Battalion's killed and died?? To cap it all the 1/6th Bn War Diary, which does include substantial lists of casualties doen't have him listed either, so my conclusion is that he may have been transferred out of the 1/6th Bn to the 10th Bn and was badly wounded with them. However I haven't seen the relevant Medal Roll Sheet to confirm or deny this transfer.

Graham.

Thanks for all the help Graham, after talking to my work colleague you are probably right about the transfer to another battalion. Could you please give any pointers about what actions he may have been in at the time of his fatal injury? Also where on the 1st july 1916, were the 1/6th battalion positions on the somme because my pal knows he survived the battle, and possibly he may have been transfered to the 10th battalion after this. Thanks again steve

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stevefogs

Thanks for all of the trouble you have went to on my behalf, very much in your debt! My next task is to find out about his military medal, because my work colleague has no idea where it is, and which member of his family has it. I am compiling Henry's military history out of friendship,and a way to honour my friends great grandfather who gave the ultimate sacrifice. Thanks once again " Rygate " stevefogs...

Graham

These are his details:

Name: PHILLIPSON, Henry Livingstone

Regiment, Corps etc.: Northumberland Fusiliers

Battalion etc.: 10th Battalion.

Last name: Phillipson

First name(s): Henry Livingstone

Initials: H

Birthplace: Haydon Bridge, Northumberland

Enlisted: Chester-Le-Street, Durham

Residence:

Rank: PRIVATE

Number: 6724

Date died: 14 February 1917

How died: Died of wounds

Theatre of war: Home

Supplementary Notes: M.M

Regards

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Stebie9173

His M.M. was published (without citation, as was usual) in the London Gazette of 9-12-1916.

6724 Pte. H. L. Philipson, North'd Fus.

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.a...ilitary%20Medal

A rule of thumb that often holds up is that the medal was awarded for a deed 2-3 months before the Gazette date, so PERHAPS in September 1916?

The link to his medal card specifically for the M.M. is below. This will give us his unit at the time of the award.

Description Medal card of Philipson, H L

Corps Regiment No Rank

Northumberland Fusiliers 6724 Private

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/23

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=4

Providing that he was with the 1/6th Northumberland Fusiliers my GUESS at the place would be Clark's Trench/Hook Trench at High Wood during the battle of Flers-Courcellette on the 15th September 1916. But it is just a GUESS!!!!

The 1/6th N.F. attacked to the west of High Wood, which was a major obstacle, on the morning of the 15th September 1916. When the 47th Division, attacking the wood head on, got held up the 1/6th formed a defensive flank at hook Trench, sending bombers to the north-west of the wood and successfully neutralised the machine-gunners there. The bombers, in effect, protected the whole right flank of 50th Division, so one would expect a few medals to be awarded to those men. But, as I said a Guess....

Steve.

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sandyford

Stevefogs

I have not found Henry Livingstone Philipson on my database of the 6th Northumberland Fusiliers, which contains the listings of Wounded, Missing, Killed in Action entered from the War Diary casualty lists.

But - he was entitled to the 1914 to 15 Star and according to this roll he first arrived in France on 25th August 1915.

post-2045-1191883593.jpg

According to the Main Site, the 10th Northumberland Fusiliers was a New Army battalion and it was attached to the 23rd Division and first went to France between 21st to 26th August 1915.

Although the 6th N.F.'s numbers had been severely reduced at 2nd Ypres in April 1915 I have no record of reinforcements coming from England until later in 1915 so it looks as though Henry Phillipson may have gone overseas with the 10th N.F.

As I understand it, the 23rd Div. took part in most of the battles of the Somme in 1916, The 6th N.F. belonged to the 50th Division and the Battle of Flers Courcelette 15th to 22nd September 1916 was a momentous battle for them.

From the timing of the Gazette entry, it seems that Henry Livingstone Philipson might have won his military medal at this time.

Kate

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Graham Stewart

I have to agree with Kate on this one and without realising it, I do actually have a copy of the Medal Roll Sheet and there is no indication that he ever served with the 6th Bn at all, all of his service was with the 10th Bn. Whats thrown this into disarray is the CWGC showing him as a 6th Bn casualty, which I'm now certain he wasn't.

post-7376-1191918637.jpg

How the CWGC have listed him as 6th Bn is a mystery, but he may have been returned to the UK to recover from his wounds and then been posted to the 6th(Reserve)Bn, which was based in the UK. While with them his health may have broken down as a result of his old wounds and then died, hence the inclusion of 6th Bn on the headstone.

If you look at the attachment from NF Medal Roll Book WO329-690-1864, you can actually see that those around him are all serving with New Army units and not Territorials. This indicates that he must have enlisted around September 1914, as I know 6705 Pte Luke Armstrong enlisted on the 30th August 1914.

Graham.

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punjab612

How the CWGC have listed him as 6th Bn is a mystery

Or a simple scanning error?

Peter

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Graham Stewart

Peter,

Quite possibe, because in the early days of the scanning of the CWGC Registars, you had 'Yorkshire' come out as 'Yorksh*te'. We hear the proud boast "it's all been corrected" - b*llocks there's boatloads of NF errors especially where pre-fixed numbers are concerned.

Graham.

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Stebie9173

I know that even some of the Officers of the Northamptonshire Regiment are definitely wrong on CWGC - a fair few 2nd battalion Officers killed at Neuve Chappelle are listed as 1st battalion, despite the officers having served in the 2nd from the start of the war, e.g. the 2nd battalion's Adjutant!

Regardless of that, I think that if the MM card says 10th Battalion (which would invalidate all my guesswork!) then he would almost certainly have been 10th battalion all the way. The gap between the award of a medal in September 1916 and his death in February 1917 would seem too short to have been shipped back to England, recovered from wounds, and been returned to an alternate battalion (i.e. the 1/6th).

In my own researches, a wounded man would nearly always be attached to the Regimental Depot immediately on arrival back in England (for admin purposes only, in all likelihood) and then transferred to a Reserve battalion after a few months of recuperation (normally on discharge from hospital). If that is the case here, then he could well have been seriously wounded around the time when he was awarded the M.M.?

Steve.

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JefR

I just took a walk up to the cemetery to check out the Phillipson headstone (2 images attached).

The grave clearly shows he was in the 10th Btn and CWGC have got it wrong. The standard headstone was mounted within a grave boundary that was laid by public subscription. Only the top stone of the surround remains. it is inscribed:-

"Erected by the people of Chester-le-St

In loving memory of

Pte H L Phillipson MM 10th N.F.

Died of wounds received in France

Feb 14th 1917 Aged 32 years"

I hope I've done the posting right - I'm new here.

It's a fantastic site.

JefR

post-14846-1191945575.jpg

post-14846-1191945598.jpg

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stevefogs

Thanks for the pix Jef R

And,thank you to everyone who replied to my questions, i am utterley stunned with all of the information i have received from everyone out there and once again i just can't say thank you enough. stevefogs....

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Graham Stewart

Jef R,

Hello and welcome to the Forum and I think everyone who has contributed to this post would join me in saying a big "thank you" for taking up your precious time to go and get a photo of the gravesite at Chester-le-Street, to help us get to the bottom of this mystery. So it appears that the CWGC got it wrong after all.

I do hope you enjoy your stay with us, but be warned it's a very addictive place, although I'm sure you'll enjoy every moment of it.

Thanks again,

Graham.

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sandyford

JefR

An excellent picture and a very fast response and what a good first posting on the forum!!

It is very interesting to see the the surround contributed by the people of Chester-le-Street.

I will draw Terry Denham's attention to this thread in case the battalion is different or there is information about Pte Phillipson in the older registers.

kate

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Graham Stewart

Kate,

I have the old Register and it does say "6th Bn,NF", whereas there is no evidence to hand that he was serving with them either at home or overseas.

Graham.

PS

Wonder what it says on his Death Certificate?

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Terry Denham

This is not a scanning error as it is published in the original 1930 cemetery register as 6th Bn. It is not the type of mistake that the scanning process would have generated.

The Commission simply repeats the information supplied by the army authorities. This information indicates that the army data may have been wrong.

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sandyford

Graham

Just as you have found, Terry has just replied to say that the original register says 6th Battalion. He says that, as we would expect, the information about the soldiers was supplied to the CWGC by the Army and that sometimes the paperwork lagged behind the information.

I had wondered whether Pte Phillipson might have been attached to the 6th (during the Battle of Flers-Courcelette for example) or even transferred but it was not yet official, because it seems such a strange mistake.

But the fact that he is not listed in the 6th War Diary casualty list at all not even as "attached", makes me doubtful about this solution.

It would be interesting to see his death certificate.

kate

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sandyford

Or -

the archive of the local newspaper either for the time of his Military Medal or the time when he died of wounds, because it seems that Chester-le - Street honoured its Great War heroes and there might have been a paragraph about his service.

Kate

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dragonz

replying to a quite old thread here,I know,

but some further details on this......

6724 Pte. Henry Livingstone Phillipson's MM is ,at the present

time,owned by a friend of mine here in NZ.

Cheers !

Steve

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Guest jim m
replying to a quite old thread here,I know,

but some further details on this......

6724 Pte. Henry Livingstone Phillipson's MM is ,at the present

time,owned by a friend of mine here in NZ.

Cheers ! Philipson

Steve

I am researching my philpson side of our family grandfather Henry lIVINGSTONE philipson and have came across ref.to his nephew H.L.Philipson M.M. AND according to military records the qualifying date for his M.M.was25-8-1915.Regarding the medal i would enquire as to its location and owner in New Zealand.Maybe it should be in N.E.England U.K. at the Regiment Museum.regards Jim M.

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