7th Battalion,The East Surrey Regiment

[PBI]

[shaymen]

Very very interesting photo...as I have just started looking at these 2 brothers both killed on the same day 13th October 1915.

Name: SANDFORD, ERNEST ALFRED

Initials: E A

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: "A" Coy. 7th Bn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 13/10/1915

Service No: 2191

Additional information: Son of John and Eliza Sandford, of 15, Wind Hill, Bishop's Stortford, Herts.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 65 to 67.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Name: SANDFORD, WALTER JAMES

Initials: W J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment/Service: East Surrey Regiment

Unit Text: "A" Coy. 7th Bn.

Age: 25

Date of Death: 13/10/1915

Service No: 6

Additional information: Son of John and Eliza Sandford, of 15, Wind Hill, Bishop's Stortford, Herts.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 65 to 67.

Memorial: LOOS MEMORIAL

Just really got me thinking...could they be in this photo ?....East Surrey 7th 'A'Company...must be a chance ?

Any way of finding out what platoon number they may have been in ??

Glyn

[KevinBattle]

The Long Long Trail has this information:-

7th (Service) Battalion

Formed at Kingston-upon-Thames in August 1914 as part of K1 and attached to 37th Brigade in 12th (Eastern) Division. Moved initially to Purfleet but by November 1914 was in billets in Sandgate. Moved to Albuhera Barracks in Aldershot in February 1915. Landed at Boulogne 2 June 1915.

Judging by the foliage that seems to be starting to show behind them, I'd suggest this photo was taken closer to June than February, possibly once they knew they were about to be sent to France.

Trouble is I can't see any rank stripes and only 1 officer - where are the rest? Surely a Company has a Captain, plus Lieutenants and 2nd Ltns. There are some darker uniforms as well, maybe there is still more to tease from the photo!

With the help of that wonderful search engine, there were 82 men killed on the 13th October.

There are two other sets of same surnames, but as yet unable to find if they are also related:

HILL RF 5812 7TH BN 13/10/1915 EAST SURREY REGIMENT

HILL G 508 7TH BN 13/10/1915 EAST SURREY REGIMENT

HUMPHREY W 8793 7TH BN 13/10/1915 EAST SURREY REGIMENT

HUMPHREY WE 1947 7TH BN 13/10/1915 EAST SURREY REGIMENT

If so, almost a Pals Battalion....

[Phil996]

I’ve got some later, 1917, postcards of 7th East Surrey platoons that might be of interest. I’ve posted them on Flickr – see below. If you click on ‘all sizes’ above the photos it brings them up larger.

The first, ‘WW1 pic 2’ at http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil996/1452403936 belonged to my grandfather, 22071 Pte Alfred Waller, and it was one of the items that sparked off my interest in his WW1 service. There is no clue as to when or where the photo was taken, except for ‘Carte Postale’ on the back. His pay book, which I also have, says that he arrived in France in June 1917: I already knew he had been taken prisoner but not when or where but then found out from the Red Cross it was on 30th November 1917 during the battle of Cambrai – the day of the German counter-attack. The bare trees in the background suggested the photo was taken sometime in Autumn or early winter.

Then three postcards appeared on eBay, which, from the distinctive pattern of the branches on the trees, had obviously been taken at the same time and place. The first was advertised as having a list of named officers on the back which I was keen to have as the pay book contained the signatures of about 10 officers – it would have been good to put faces to the names especially as several were later killed in action. But although I bid a ridiculous amount I was outbid by someone in Belgium. Both the seller and the buyer ignored my somewhat cheeky requests for the details on the back. The ebay pic is ‘7th ES Officers’ at http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil996/4332171489.

I did buy two others from the same set, one ‘7th ES C company 9 platoon’ at http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil996/43321.../in/photostream and the other, ‘7th ES C company HQ staff’ at http://www.flickr.com/photos/phil996/4332910570. The war diaries confirmed that the Bn was indeed at Bonnières, which is a few miles west of the front line, from late October to early November until it moved up for the start of the battle of Cambrai on 20th November.

My grandfather’s photo – he is sitting on the ground fourth from the right as you look at it - was not posted and is very creased. He must have had it with him during the battle and through his captivity so it’s a very personal memento of him. He lived till the age of 80 and I knew him from when he was about 65 but he never spoke about the war.

If anyone has any other postcards in this series – presumably taken by an enterprising local French photographer - I’d love to see them, especially a better copy of the one with my grandfather. If the person who outbid me for the named officers one sees this, please put me out of my misery and tell me who they are!

Phil

[kenf48]

Trouble is I can't see any rank stripes and only 1 officer - where are the rest? Surely a Company has a Captain, plus Lieutenants and 2nd Ltns. There are some darker uniforms as well, maybe there is still more to tease from the photo!

The photograph is of No 1 platoon of A Company

The War Diary lists the followin officers as going to France:-

A Coy. Capt. Tomlins* (Vigor Tomkins on CWGC and original entries)

Capt. Churchill

Lieut. W Martin*

2 Lieut. Armstrong.

2 Lieut. Brasnet.

*refers to regular soldiers so suggest Capt Tomlins was Company Commander and if we have 1, 2 and 3 Platoon the platoon commander in the photograph was one of the Lieutenants. An educated guess they were listed in platoon order (though it may be seniority) which means the officer is probably Lieut Martin

Capt. Tomkins led two platoons of A company in an attack on Gun Trench (the diary doesn't record which platoons) in support of a successful frontal assault by B Company. Unfortunately, the diary records, they were too far north 'and were badly cut up by machine gun fire in the open'. Capt. Tomkins was killed and the report of the attack records the two platoons lost all their officers and NCOs. Although the survivors reached the trench the Company's frontal attack failed. In total 4 officers and 245 rank and file from the 7th Bn were recorded as killed, wounded or missing.

As the Diary points out the Surreys were part of the 12th Division which comprised mainly London Regiments, it wasn't just the Northern towns that had Pals...

Ken

[annelang25]

Does anyone have any information on East Surrey 7th Battalion's activity around the 2nd October 1915.

Relative of ours died on this day

[CT-Guards]

Try here - http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00719151001.pdf

or here - http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu5.aspx

What was your relatives name?

[annelang25]

Try here - http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00719151001.pdf

or here - http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu5.aspx

What was your relatives name?

William Thomas Bendall service no 2093

died 2nd Oct 1915

[hugo45]

My uncle Thomas Wellings, died of wounds, October 14th 1915 aged 23. He was a corporal in the 7th batt. East Surrey regt. service no.159. He could well be in the photo posted above. Any way of finding out where he was wounded or any other info about him.

[kenf48]

You might be better with a separate thread but the War Diary is available here

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/menu1.aspx?li=1

I would guess he was in action the previous day to his death when the Bn suffered very heavy losses at "The Quarries - Hulluck" (sic) and the diary records 158 O.R. wounded as well as many dead and missing (roughly over a quarter of the Battalion strength and probably closer to half of those engaged)

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00719151009.pdf

Hulluch was part of the battlefield at Loos

There is a trench map and further information on this Forum Thread

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=59816

I assume you obtained the information above from Soldiers Died in Great War (SDGW)

Although Loos was the battle that 'destroyed the BEF' it was one of the first engagements for soldiers in Battalions who were part of Kitchener's New Army of which 7th Bn was one see Long Long Trail (LLT)

http://www.1914-1918.net/eastsurreys.htm

Thomas Medal Index Card (mic) shows he went to France with the Bn entering theatre 1st June 1915 he was entitled to 1915 Star BWM and Victory medal see LLT researching a soldier

http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/grandad.htm

You are also in luck as there are three pages of service record for him on Ancestry (accessible via free trial or your local library) Well, Ancestry says 3 I could only see two, he enlisted on 19 August 1914 and was promoted on 23 October 1914

Finally (from me) if you search the CWGC site and click on the red cemetery link you will see most of the casualties buried there were from No 1 Casualty Clearing Station as your uncle died of wounds he had probably been evacuated from the battlefield but was so seriously injured he died before he could pass further up the chain. The diaries show 3 wounded on the 10th and 5 on the 11th I think these would either have succumbed or been evacuated before the 14th (again see LLT for the casualty evacuation chain http://www.1914-1918.net/ramc.htm) which tends to confirm he was wounded in the action on the 13th.

Ken

[hugo45]

You might be better with a separate thread but the War Diary is available here

http://qrrarchive.we...menu1.aspx?li=1

I would guess he was in action the previous day to his death when the Bn suffered very heavy losses at "The Quarries - Hulluck" (sic) and the diary records 158 O.R. wounded as well as many dead and missing (roughly over a quarter of the Battalion strength and probably closer to half of those engaged)

http://qrrarchive.we...00719151009.pdf

Hulluch was part of the battlefield at Loos

There is a trench map and further information on this Forum Thread

http://1914-1918.inv...showtopic=59816

I assume you obtained the information above from Soldiers Died in Great War (SDGW)

Although Loos was the battle that 'destroyed the BEF' it was one of the first engagements for soldiers in Battalions who were part of Kitchener's New Army of which 7th Bn was one see Long Long Trail (LLT)

http://www.1914-1918...eastsurreys.htm

Thomas Medal Index Card (mic) shows he went to France with the Bn entering theatre 1st June 1915 he was entitled to 1915 Star BWM and Victory medal see LLT researching a soldier

http://www.1914-1918...dad/grandad.htm

You are also in luck as there are three pages of service record for him on Ancestry (accessible via free trial or your local library) Well, Ancestry says 3 I could only see two, he enlisted on 19 August 1914 and was promoted on 23 October 1914

Finally (from me) if you search the CWGC site and click on the red cemetery link you will see most of the casualties buried there were from No 1 Casualty Clearing Station as your uncle died of wounds he had probably been evacuated from the battlefield but was so seriously injured he died before he could pass further up the chain. The diaries show 3 wounded on the 10th and 5 on the 11th I think these would either have succumbed or been evacuated before the 14th (again see LLT for the casualty evacuation chain http://www.1914-1918.net/ramc.htm) which tends to confirm he was wounded in the action on the 13th.

Ken

[hugo45]

Many thanks Ken for all the info. I know my uncle is buried at Choques cemetery and hope to visit there soon. Your kind reply certainly fills in a lot of the gaps in my meagre knowledge of his service history.

[SydneyBevan]

My 2nd great uncle William (Sydney) Howell died on the 22nd February 1916. He was a private in the 7th Battalion, east Surrey regiment (regiment number 5842). I can barely find anything about him except for where he is buried: Quarry Cemetery, Vermelles. Would anyone be kind enough to help? 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, SydneyBevan said:

My 2nd great uncle William (Sydney) Howell died on the 22nd February 1916. He was a private in the 7th Battalion, east Surrey regiment (regiment number 5842). I can barely find anything about him except for where he is buried: Quarry Cemetery, Vermelles. Would anyone be kind enough to help? 

 

He was killed in action.  

 

The transcribed war diary is online (link in previous post above) and shows that on the 21st the Battalion had taken up positions in trenches 'in front of the Hohenzellern' (Redoubt).

The war diary is also on Ancestry and there is a sketch plan on the first page of March which gives a good indication of where they were on the earlier deployment in February.

 

The trenches are named and you can access sketch plans on the previous thread (linked above) or the trench maps at  the NLS https://maps.nls.uk/ww1/trenches/list.html or imo, the more accessible Mcmasters http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/islandora/object/macrepo%3A67738/-/collection

 

The diary reports snipers were very active, although it was relatively quiet.   It appears a sniper's bullet did for him.

 

 The medal rolls show he entered theatre on 19.10.1915 and therefore was a reinforcement.  The diary records a draft of 74 arriving on the 24th October, the battalion was still below strength following the losses on the 13th/14th October.

 

SDGW shows he was living in Battersea and enlisted at Westminster, probably around early November 1914.

 

There is more information on researching a soldier on the parent site the Long Long Trail link top right.

 

Ken

Edited 17 August , 2018 by kenf48

[Guest]

My great grandfather was killed in the early hours of July 3rd 1916,at Ovillers,he was with the 7th Battalion,east Surrey Regiment,his name was Thomas William Bliss,he was 29 years old from Islington,London

The Regiment diary says they were in reserve so I'm assuming they were shelled while waiting to push forward,I'm wondering if he was in that original photograph too? My family have no known pictures of him.

[RegHannay]

On 17/08/2018 at 13:49, SydneyBevan said:

My 2nd great uncle William (Sydney) Howell died on the 22nd February 1916. He was a private in the 7th Battalion, east Surrey regiment (regiment number 5842). I can barely find anything about him except for where he is buried: Quarry Cemetery, Vermelles. Would anyone be kind enough to help? 

having transcribed my grandfathers diaries recently. On the 21st February the 7th battalion moved into the front line trenches in front of the Hohenzollern redoubt, Mud trench,Sticky trench,

Hogs back Kaiserin and West face also Northampton trench in support line.

Snipers very active along with trench mortars and a type of aerial torpedo. a Bosch sniper on Hogs back was reported by our sniping officer to have been shot by Corporal Rule then blown up by trench mortar. Wind suitable for gas attack by enemy.(7th battalion diary)

I also have the entries from my grandfathers diary which show the day to day living in the trenches and writes- the night of the 21st we had five casualties from rifle grenades and snipers, one fatal through head. Bitterly cold. 22nd February, heavy snow  for two or three hours. Air raid on Bethune revenged by 29 planes carrying each two 120lb bombs. a British mine sprung at 9-a.m under enemy lines.( three fatalities recorded that day CWGC) including your uncle, it could well be died of wounds from previous night.

 

[kenf48]

On 10/12/2019 at 16:13, triumphrob said:

My great grandfather was killed in the early hours of July 3rd 1916,at Ovillers,he was with the 7th Battalion,east Surrey Regiment,his name was Thomas William Bliss,he was 29 years old from Islington,London

The Regiment diary says they were in reserve so I'm assuming they were shelled while waiting to push forward,I'm wondering if he was in that original photograph too? My family have no known pictures of him.

Welcome to the forum

 

Thomas William Bliss was entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal which means he did not go overseas until after 31 December 1915. 

The Battalion joined the BEF on the 2nd June 1915, therefore unfortunately your g-grandfather would not be in the photograph.  I believe he enlisted on or around the 8th November 1915 under the Derby Scheme, he did not seek a deferment under the scheme but was posted to the 4th Battalion East Surrey and probably went to France in March 1916, joining the Battalion in the draft mentioned in the diary on the 29th March.

 

The fact the diary was in reserve does not mean they were not in action that day.  It is always worth looking at the next level war diary  for a more comprehensive picture. However as you have seen the Battalion came in for' a nasty bit of shelling' while in the communication trenches and suffered 50 casualties amongst the other ranks.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[Katie_]

Hi All,

we have recently started to research my husband’s family tree and sadly discovered that one his family members died in the Great War. His name was John William Sweeting and he was part of the 7th East Surrey Battalion Regiment and unfortunately died on 25th January 1919 of his wounds. If anyone has any photos of stories of the 7th East Surrey Battalion or any information regarding them we would be very interested.

 

thanks Katie 

[Phil996]

Hi Katie

 

Have a look at my post number 4 above. The links to the photos on Flickr no longer work but if you'd like to see them I can put them on Dropbox for you. If your family member was in the 7th battalion in October/ November 1917 there's a chance he will be in one of the photos.He would probably also have been at the battle of Cambrai in November/December 1917.

 For a good account of that battle see 'With a machine gun to Cambrai' by George Coppard. He advanced with his regiment alongside the East Surreys and his experience would have been very similar to your family member's, if he was there. You can also find the battalion war diaries here -http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/war_diaries_home_new.shtml.

 

You may have seen this already but there's a page about him here - https://secure.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/RollOfHonour/People/Details/25677 and he's on the CWGC site here -https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/540233/. There's also a John William Sweeting here - https://www.pagesofthesea.org.uk/soldier/john-william-sweeting/ and a google search for "John William Sweeting" east surrey regiment produces some images which may or may not be him.

 

Hope this is some help.

 

Phil

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Katie_ said:

one his family members died in the Great War. His name was John William Sweeting

 

He has an entry on Lives of the First World War with obituary and photograph.  Killed by artillery fire.

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4336146

[David_Blanchard]

Just discovered my Great Grandfather’s sister’s son Tom Taylor was killed in 7 East Surrey’s 31 Oct 1915. Buried in Bethune.

[Katie_]

14 hours ago, Phil996 said:

Hi Katie

 

Have a look at my post number 4 above. The links to the photos on Flickr no longer work but if you'd like to see them I can put them on Dropbox for you. If your family member was in the 7th battalion in October/ November 1917 there's a chance he will be in one of the photos.He would probably also have been at the battle of Cambrai in November/December 1917.

 For a good account of that battle see 'With a machine gun to Cambrai' by George Coppard. He advanced with his regiment alongside the East Surreys and his experience would have been very similar to your family member's, if he was there. You can also find the battalion war diaries here -http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/war_diaries_home_new.shtml.

 

You may have seen this already but there's a page about him here - https://secure.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/RollOfHonour/People/Details/25677 and he's on the CWGC site here -https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/540233/. There's also a John William Sweeting here - https://www.pagesofthesea.org.uk/soldier/john-william-sweeting/ and a google search for "John William Sweeting" east surrey regiment produces some images which may or may not be him.

 

Hope this is some help.

 

Phil

Hi Phil,

 

Thank you for your response in relation above to John William Sweeting. This is greatly appreciated.

 

Thank for this IWM links you have attached. We have read theses links on the IWM last night after finally being allowed access to their site after it was unavailable. We were fascinated to read his history and finally see a photograph of him but this then make it all very real and emotional. I must admit I was crying whilst I was reading the letter from the sister in charge and his battalion leader back to his parents.

 

We would be fascinated and would love to see any photos you may have of the 7th Battalion East Surrey Regiment as you said the links above aren’t working so if you could Dropbox them or any newspaper clipping or stories you have we would be very grateful to receive these. We have also found out that John was a keen footballer and played on the 7th Battalion Regiment Team do anything you possibly have on that too would be amazing.

 

John served with the 7th Battalion from November 1915 until his untimely death on 25th January 1918, where he died in France.  So I am assuming he should be in some of the photos you may have.

 

I will forward the diary link onto my husband as he would be interested in reading this. He has downloaded and started reading the regiments diaries from the below website, but I was unsure how accurate these were as John died on Friday 25th January 1918, but in the entry in the link below this said that day was a Sunday. Do you or anyone know whether this was a transcription error?

 

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00719180105.pdf

 

Again many thanks for you email above and I look forward to your email/ Dropbox. We can’t wait to find out more about John, his regiment, his friends and see any photos of them all together in hopefully happier times that they shared during their time together.

 

Katie

[Katie_]

12 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

He has an entry on Lives of the First World War with obituary and photograph.  Killed by artillery fire.

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4336146

Hi Ken,

 

Thank you for your response above in relation to John William Sweeting this is greatly appreciated.

 

We finally managed to access the IWM website yesterday evening after (I think) it had possibly been unavailable all weekend due to the amount of people trying to access the site.

 

It was a fascinating read but very sad and moving too to realise what he actually went through and the letters back to his family from the sister in charge had me in tears.

 

If you know or have any more information on the 7th Battalion East Surrey regiment or any photos that you are able to share with us we would be very grateful to see them. Or if you know any good websites to visit for information on the regiment that would be great.

 

Thanks again for your response and link you provided to us.

 

Katie

[Phil996]

On 13/05/2020 at 00:34, Katie_ said:

Hi Phil,

 

Thank you for your response in relation above to John William Sweeting. This is greatly appreciated.

 

Thank for this IWM links you have attached. We have read theses links on the IWM last night after finally being allowed access to their site after it was unavailable. We were fascinated to read his history and finally see a photograph of him but this then make it all very real and emotional. I must admit I was crying whilst I was reading the letter from the sister in charge and his battalion leader back to his parents.

 

We would be fascinated and would love to see any photos you may have of the 7th Battalion East Surrey Regiment as you said the links above aren’t working so if you could Dropbox them or any newspaper clipping or stories you have we would be very grateful to receive these. We have also found out that John was a keen footballer and played on the 7th Battalion Regiment Team do anything you possibly have on that too would be amazing.

 

John served with the 7th Battalion from November 1915 until his untimely death on 25th January 1918, where he died in France.  So I am assuming he should be in some of the photos you may have.

 

I will forward the diary link onto my husband as he would be interested in reading this. He has downloaded and started reading the regiments diaries from the below website, but I was unsure how accurate these were as John died on Friday 25th January 1918, but in the entry in the link below this said that day was a Sunday. Do you or anyone know whether this was a transcription error?

 

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/ES00719180105.pdf

 

Again many thanks for you email above and I look forward to your email/ Dropbox. We can’t wait to find out more about John, his regiment, his friends and see any photos of them all together in hopefully happier times that they shared during their time together.

 

Katie

 

Hi Katie 

 

Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner but I had a job to find the postcards I mentioned in my earlier post. I've put the pix in Dropbox and if you use this link - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6f21lt0hlhy85h1/AAC1Xq2vgk0yIsHg5SxHoaRya?dl=0 - you should be able to access them. Let me know if there's any problem with that and I'll see if I can sort it out.The link is perfectly safe to use.

 

The one with 'A company' in the file name is the one my grandfather had. There's nothing on the back to say when and where it was taken. The others are both for C Company as you can see from the back but unfortunately none of the people are named. But as you have a photo of your man you might be able to recognise him - a long shot as the postcards show only a small proportion of the whole battalion but worth a try. It looks as though your photo is from a newspaper so it might be worth searching newspaper archives to see if you can find out more about him. There are some records on Ancestry that look as though they relate to him.It seems reasonably certain that he was at Cambrai.

 

I'll have a look for anything else I've got that might be of interest and let you have it. Good luck with your research!

 

Best wishes

 

Phil

 

[Dannemois]

Lance Corporal Robert Leslie Lander 20552 East Surrey Regiment 7th Battalion was killed in action 3/5/1917 and commemorated on the Arras Memorial.  His medal index card show he was awarded the B. M. and V. M.  but unfortunately no date of when he arrived in France.   I was unable to find his service records on Ancestry so I don't know when he actually joined or any other details.    Can someone please help.