Kings Liverpool Regiment

[jainvince]

I'm trying to pin down where two men may have been when they were KIA:

Pte J T C Leeming 19 KLR died 28.07.1917 - I understand that the Bn was part of the 30th Divn which was involved in the battle of Pilkem (31.07.17 - 02.08.17)

Pte J A Earnshaw 2/9 KLR died 28.12.17 - The 57 Divn was involved in 2nd Passchendaele but am unsure where they were in December.

Have tried NA Downloads but no details available. Can any pal help to detail where they were, please?

Bernard P

[Ian Riley]

Pte J A Earnshaw 2/9 KLR died 28.12.17 - The 57 Divn was involved in 2nd Passchendaele but am unsure where they were in December.

2/9th KLR moved into the front line in the Ypres Salient on 25th December 1917 with one casualty. They appear to have been in the north of the salient as rest billets for some of the other units of the 57th Division appeared to have been in the area of Boesinghe They crossed the Canal via Clarges Street (sorry I haven't got trench maps accessible at the moment). They were reported as being relieved on 29th December 1917 by 2/10th KLR (2nd Battalion of the Liverpool Scottish). The Liverpool Scottish Regimental History says that this relief took place at the south west edge of the Houthulst Forest and that the front line was a line of German pillboxes.

On Boxing Day they (2/9 KLR) suffered 1 officer and 3 ORs killed and 14 ORs wounded. On the 27th there was still snow on the ground. On the 28th the sector was so quiet that that the Divisional Commander obviously thought it suspicious and ordered a particularly close watch to be kept on enemy lines. They left the line on the 29th. Total casualties for four days being 1 officer and 4 ORs killed and 1 officer and 21 other ranks wounded. Source: Everard Wyrall History of the KLR.

I notice that 'Soldiers Died' died lists Earnshaw as 'Died' rather than 'Killed in Action' or 'Died of Wounds' and that (CWGC) he is buried someway back at Dozinghem. His death may well not be related to the spell in the line but to illness.

Ian

[jainvince]

Ian

Thanks for that information. The KIA was, I accept a rather sloppy shorthand. My reference notes for Pte Earnshaw state "he died at a base hospital from wounds he had received..... on the first day he went into action".

So he probably didn't die from illness. Presumably he was transported back to Dozinghem, possibly after attention closer to the battlefield but didn't survive. May he RIP. He enlisted in February 1917 at Bury aged 19. Many local lads joined the Lancs Fusiliers

Thanks again

Bernard P

[jainvince]

Now advised that:

"Pte Leeming died a few days before the start of the Battle of Pilkem Ridge, and the narrative says that 'For all four [Pals] battalions the rest of July was spent out of the line, training for the big attack which was to take place at the end of the month'.

thanks for all the help.

Bernard P

[Ian Riley]

Pte J T C Leeming 19 KLR died 28.07.1917 - I understand that the Bn was part of the 30th Divn which was involved in the battle of Pilkem (31.07.17 - 02.08.17)

Leeming is recorded in Soldiers Died as KIA. For the attack on the 31st July 1917, the 89th Brigade was to be held in reserve and in particular the 19th KLR was to be held as divisional reserve with no immediate task. Looking at the narrative of the attack in Wyrall (History of the KLR 1914-1919 Vol III), their approach march to the front line for the attack seems to be from the area of Dickebusch through Chateau Segard to an area south of Zillebeke. So for 28th July, they were possibly in the Dickebusch area. Graham Maddocks in The Liverpool Pals doesn't really provide any information about their training and reserve positions but realtes that other Pals' battalions started out from the Dickebusch area.

He may have been the victim of sporadic shelling in reserve or perhaps working forward with a carrying party or other working party.

War diaries might provide a more definitive answer.

Ian

[Ian Riley]

Bernard,

The war diary for 19th KLR might provide the solution as SDITGW certainly shows Leeming as KIA. I presume that it is not infallible but deaths from enemy action of any sort are generally recorded thus (although I think there are categories, when used, that record gas deaths as such).

For Private Earnshaw, I don't thing that Dozinghem counts as a base hospital; the CWGC site has it populated by Casualty Clearing Stations and it is only ten or so miles west of Ieper. I am happy to be corrected but I thought the base hospitals were much further removed from the front. However, possibly the Soldiers Died entry is plain wrong (I am sure that must happen more than we know) or misleading in that I understand that'died' normally implies death through caused other than enemey action. From a fairly rapid optical scan (ie by eyeball) of Wyrall the 2/9th does not appear to have been involved in any action as a unit between the end of October 1917 and its entry into the front line on Christmas Day 1917. Certainly anyone wounded in October would have moved further back than Dozinghem by New Year.

If he received wounds on his 'first day in action' that might be the 25th when they crossed the canal at 3:15 pm and completed their relief by 7:45pm 'One casualty, machine gun fire'. Interestingly, there is no mention of whether wounded or killed.

On the Boxing Day (1 and 3 killed and 0 and 14 wounded) the problem seems to have been a retaliatory German barrage and machine gun fire following a British barrage further down the line.

Ian

[steve fuller]

Although my interest lies with the Beds, the 2nd Beds were in the same Bgde as Pte Leeming and the 19th KLR's, which cought my attention to the post.

It may be relevant that the Bedfords were sent to explore a reportedly evacuated German trench on the night of the 27th/28th, following several days of aggressive patrols and raids in their sector.

Perhaps closer inspection will reveal his unit were caught up in that activity?

[jainvince]

Many thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, downloadable war diaries currently not available for these 2 KLR Batt'ns so would need to go to source.

Bernard P

[Ken Lees]

Unfortunately, downloadable war diaries currently not available for these 2 KLR Batt'ns so would need to go to source.

Not necessarily.

2/9th Bn War Diary extract, December 1917:

24th Fitting out for going into line.

HOUTHULST FOREST

25th 3 p.m. The Battn crossed the Canal at 3.15 p.m. via CLARGES STREET to take over the Left Sub-Sector from the 2/7th KING’S LIVERPOOL REGT. Administrative & Operation Orders attached. Relief complete 7.45 p.m. One casualty Machine Gun Fire. Frequent heavy falls of snow during the relief and throughout the night. All posts in the front line inspected. Most posts had neither adequate protection from fire or any shelter from the weather. The wire along the whole front is negligible. Men worked on posts throughout the night. No movement allowed by day, wire and corrugated shelters brought up by carrying parties after dusk and improvement of posts continued.

26th Heavy barrage well to the right of right Sub-Sector caused enemy on our front uneasiness, this he showed by continued shelling and Machine Gun Fire on tracks and cross roads and extra alertness along our front posts. Brilliant moonlight and snow made patrolling impossible. Casualties, one Officer Lt. W. A. REID & 3 O.R. killed, 14 O.R. wounded. Lt. W. A. REID and Sgt. J.B. WOOSEY were hit whilst visiting the Front Line Posts.

27th 5 a.m. Weather still severe, ground snow covered and frost bound.

One case of Trench Foot. Two large carrying parties found by reserve Coy. carried up from R.E. Dump to front line barbed wire, stakes and elephant shelters. Men of front line posts improved shelters and put up wire in Forest.

HONOURS AND AWARDS

For gallant service on the Western Front 2nd Lt. L.T. LOCAN, Manchester Regt. Attached 2/9th The King’s Liverpool Regt. “Mentioned in Despatches of Nov. 7th “London Gazette” of Tuesday Dec 18th 1917.

11.30 p.m. Inter-Coy Relief complete. “A” & “B” Coys relieved “C” & “D” in the Front Line, “C” & “D” Coys returning to the Counter attack and Reserve Coy Lines respectively.

Trench Foot: The prescribed precautionary measures for the prevention of Trench Foot appear to be having the desired affect under the most advers circumstances. Ground very bad, thaw set in.

28th Front area quiet. Several cases of Frost bitten feet amongst the troops relieved from the line shell holes, owing to the men being unable to move about or leave their shell holes. Snow covered ground & bright moonlight making the least movement visible to the enemy, who on his side had his back to the Forest. Special warning order received regarding the unusual quietness of the enemy from Divisional Commander but the hours of darkness passed away without any unusual occurrence.

29th Arrangements made with the 2/10th K.L.R. to relieve at 10.30 p.m. instead of usual time about 8 o’clock to avoid the usual period of enemy activities. At 5.20 p.m. S.O.S. signal was seen on our right & passed on by us. Our barrage responding immediately. Relief carried out without casualty. Total casualties during the four days in the line, 1 Officer, 4 O.R. Killed & 1 Officer (2nd Lt. A.R. HILL) & 21 O.R. wounded.

Ken

[Ken Lees]

Bernard,

If you want the full-size version of this image, PM me your e-mail address and I will send it to you. I had to reduce it considerably in size to post it here.

[jainvince]

Ken

Many thanks for additional information. will add to my records.

Bye the bye, does anybody know where 'Clarges St' was?

Bernard P

[JohnC]

This is a very belated reply to an old topic, however somebody might still be interested....

Clarges St is a duckboard track from the time of 3rd Ypres. It ran from Boesinghe in a north-easterly direction towards the front, via Wijdendrift. The attached map refers; composed of two joined 10,000 sheets, the northmost of which dated at 18/9/1917, the southmost I believe to be of 30/6/1917. There were three parallel duckboard tracks, from north to south named Clarges St, Hunter St and Railway St. Plus various cross-tracks, a light railway and tramway.

John