Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Mountain batteries at Anzac


RodB

Recommended Posts

Alan,

 

yes thanks, just what I tried to say to Michael, my bad.

 

"But if there is presently no record of these mountain guns in this theatre and given the guns you mention could not fire this type of shell found by Campbell; the next thing to consider would be whether the shell was simply a wayward shell from the Indian Mountain Brigade or could it only be ammunition unique to the sale of the NZ guns."

 

Ottoman batteries came and went during the fighting. Batteries were shelled at times, mainly those around the Ari Bunu Area & Olive grove by the Navy and some of our guns in Anzac.

 

I have no details on batteries losses during this period, but some well known batteries were hit hard at times, or at lest by Allied writers?

 

More checking of the Turkish sources needed here.

 

Mate, the details given by Jeff were from a discussion about a well known Ottoman  Battery during the Anzac battle, you think I can could remember the title of discussion, but I don't, Jeff can you help here?

 

Sorry but how did I pick up these maps, are they yours Alan?

 

Cheers


S.B

20190718-185522.jpg

20190718-200558.jpg

20190728_232938.jpg

Edited by stevebecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for late reply.

 

On 23/07/2019 at 08:10, Jeff Pickerd said:

Lastly the question has been asked of Steve Becker’s list of Turkish artillery as to where it shows the 10 pounder mountain guns. I am surprised that no one has noticed it on that list at post 42! The last entry of d] old guns, 7cm Gebirgeschutz M 1890; in German ‘mountain gun’, is a 70mm (10 pound) mountain gun. As to whether they were used at Anzac, maybe Emre can tell us.

I noticed it, but it's a rare gun and apparently wasn't used at Anzac, at least for the time period I mentioned. 

 

On 24/07/2019 at 21:23, michaeldr said:

 

Emre,

 

I suppose that actually, our maps of where the Centre Section was positioned, are not really going to be of much help to you.

What you need to know is where the shells with the Indian markings fell.

Alas, that is not specifically identified. All that we have to go on in that respect is

 

Was there an Ottoman gun firing on these particular Anzac positions which could have used the Indian 10-pdr shells?

 

regards

Michael

On 23/07/2019 at 14:18, michaeldr said:

Emre,
The account [see The Gallipolian, No.85, Winter 1997] was “written early in 1916 by the late Colonel A.C.Fergusson, known to his troops as "Percussion Sahib", who commanded 21 (Kohat) Mountain Battery during the GaJlipoli campaign. It has been made available to us by his son Colonel Kerneth Fergusson to who we (the Gallipoli Association) are most grateful.” 


quote - “Yet one more yarn about our own shell being fired at us. In the very early days we were often told we were firing at our own troops. Sometimes these allegations were wrong but investigation proved bodies of our own l0 pounder shell sometimes in places where our own guns could have put them, but also in places where they could not possibly have put them. 
One day Campbell was walking along a trench when an Australian told him to hurry as Turks were shelling it, and pointed to the body of a shell which had just fallen. Campbell went and looked at it and found a shell with marks to show that it had been made at Cossipore and filled at Rawul Pindi, and the scoop of the shell showed that it had come from right outside our line. He phoned down to me and I went and satisfied myself that it could not possibly be ours. I then went and asked Corps to wire and ask if Helles had lost any MN, guns. The answer came back "No" so the matter remained a mystery, but the Australians were still suspicious that we were doing it. 
Long afterwards the mystery was cleared up. The BGRA New Zealand had long before the war ordered a battery of "new mountain guns" for New Zealand. England sent our old 10 pdrs and BGRA refused to accept delivery. After a lot of correspondence England told him to sell them and credit them with the proceeds. New Zealand sold them to Turkey and here they were being used against us.” 


Campbell was I/C the Centre Section, 21st (Kohat) Mountain Battery, and the only references to their position relate to early in the campaign and are given thus:-

Map Gallipoli 1/40,000 - Sq. 224.M.1 (O.P.M.5
Map Gallipoli 1/20,000 Sq. 80.V.5-8 

There are however further mentions, such as:-
“Campbell …. his Section chiefly fired between Quinn's and Pope's Posts, and between Pope's and Walker's Ridge” (19th May 1915)
And another:- “The Centre Section under Campbell and Trenchard never got a chance of doing anything spectacular, but did sterling good work and were crumped more than either of the others. The Australians said they could never have stopped in Quinn's Post if it had not been for them” 

 

[Regarding Col Fergusson: 
“Arthur Fergusson was born on ,2 July 1871, educated at Haileybury, and commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the Royal Artillery in 1891.  …  … In 1892 he sailed for India where his service included the Tirah Campaign and some 18 months at Chitral. He commanded the Kohat Mountain Battery (Frontier Force) for eleven years 'and was one of the band of fine Indian Mountain Artillery commanders of that period whose names embellish the history of the Frontier.' 
The Battery went to Egypt in 1915 and helped repulse the Turks in Sinai before landing in Gallipoli. Here "his cheerful bearing and wise counsel are well remembered as an inspiration both to artillery and infantry alike. In 1916 he took the Indian Mountain Brigade to Mesopotamia, later returning to Palestine, and in 1919 participated in the Third Afghan War. He retired with the rank of Colonel in 1922 having gained the DSO in 1917, the CMG in 1918 and seven Mentions in Despatches. 
Colonel Fergusson died in July 1958.”]

On 25/07/2019 at 13:04, michaeldr said:

Which was firing on Anzac positions, the 70mm or the 75mm?

Can their positions be identified?

 

Michael, thank you for details. I'd like to share some sketch maps from, again, 19th Div war diary. (Ignore red arrows. I added them when I recently shared the sketches with Alan -alantwo- for another topic). You can compare with ones in my list above:

 

27 April - 1 May:

 

20190718-185356.jpg

 

20190718-200558.jpg

 

20190718-185522.jpg


14 May (sorry for horrible quality, still legible though - red arrows indicate new forward arty positions at Lone Pine and the Mortar Ridge, orange arrows indicate new arty units on Third Ridge/around Scrubby Knoll):

20190728_232938.jpg.400a55680774568dd540aa6847fa920a.jpg

 

List of the new units indicated on the map:

 

Yellow arrows:
Two guns from 5th Regiment / 5. Alay'dan iki top (these are Schneiders positioned around The Cup/Lone Pine)

Two guns from 8th Company, 9th Regiment / 9. Alay 8. Bölük'ten iki top

Two guns from 7th Company, 9th Regiment / 9. Alay 7. Bölük'ten iki top

 

Orange arrows:

One 21 cm mortar / 21.sa.lik bir havan (this should be a 21 cm Krupp Mörser 99 sent by Fortified Zone Command)

Two 12 cm guns / 12.sa.lik iki top 

 

(7th and 8th Mountain -Cebel- Companies = 3rd Mountain Battalion of an arty regt)

 

It's sad we don't have a proper date, but based on "early days" and the place names you've mentioned (they're all within the 19th Div front - remember entire Ottoman force at Anzac was under 19th Div until early May), presence of 10 pdrs seems not quite possible because both units and gun types are strictly specified in the war diary. 2nd Div arrived at front before 19 May attack, and it's known that they arrived without arty. Thus, only remaining option (for 19th Div front) is 5th Div's mountain arty battalion (3rd Bn/5th Arty Regt).

 

Still I will continue to looking for further details. There's a possibility that 16th Div had some 10 pdrs. 

 

On 23/07/2019 at 14:46, Rockturner said:

Just to clarify why New Zealand moved on these mountain guns. It was because they had ordered 4.5" howitzers, but were sent 10 pounders.

And if the Turkish Archives are working through the back log as Emre suggests, can someone ask them to get a shuffle on and release the Dardanelles Fortified Command records.

Rockturner

Their latinisation (if it's the correct term) was completed in late 2018 and they will be published either this year or in 2020. Source:

 

On 24/07/2019 at 02:12, stevebecker said:

I did read somewhere that the Ottomans deplyed no Hotchkiss MG companies to the Gallipoli Area, for the life of me I can't find that reference?

 

Here 19th Div war diary comes in handy again. Formation of the division:

20190728_233422.jpg.53d190ae5889cd80fe45f0136e472dca.jpg20190728_233448.jpg.2b365804cefc1b17ffe7544344d6592f.jpg

 

 

On 25/07/2019 at 08:55, Robert Dunlop said:

Emre, please don't be too concerned about this at the moment. We went through a similar phase with German sources as well, soon after the Great War Forum was created. There was a very significant level of concern about the validity of any German material, particularly when it dealt with the same incidents or battles as British sources. A good example was the Battle of Mons, the first major battle between British and German forces. Multiple British sources talk about the Germans advancing in close order formation and being shot down in huge numbers by British musketry. German sources provide a very different picture. Casualties were very light, except in one or two units, and the Germans broke through and captured Mons during the battle. Counter-arguments raged at times, with German records being accused of influence by Hitler and the Nazis, German lists of killed and wounded not being accurate, etc, etc. Thankfully, there is a much wider acceptance that German sources have a tremendous amount to offer but it took a lot of quiet determined effort, not least on the part of Jack Sheldon, Ralph Whitehead, Mick Forsyth and others to achieve this.

 

The early comparisons of the different accounts revealed how important it is to compare as many different types of sources as well. Anecdotal accounts needed to be set alongside contemporaneous records, such as war diaries where these exist, regimental histories, official histories, etc, etc. All types of accounts are subject to errors of interpretation, missing or incomplete information, etc. Cross-comparisons enable a more complete picture to emerge but the complete story will never be fully known.

 

It is wonderful to have inputs from the likes of yourself on the Ottoman perspective, thank you!

 

Robert

 

Ours is a little bit different case than your wonderful example/story, but thank you, my pleasure!

 

Regards,

Emre

 

Edit: I don't know how it happens, but some of the maps I uploaded before sharing my post appeared in Steve's post again . :mellow:

 

 

20190718-185522.jpg

20190718-200558.jpg

Edited by emrezmen
Date correction
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Emre,

 

Mate many thanks again, interesting details to check out.

 

As the the Guns of the 5th Artillery Regt yes I have a note to say;

 

8th Mountain Baty - Lt Besim at Anzac shown 1914 Russian intelligence - 4 batteries some armed with Schneider guns (Serbian Schneider 75mm M 1907 A guns captured 52 guns in Balkans War) 

 

As yet I have not found what Batteries these guns were in?

 

5th Artillery Regt - LtCol Reza 4-15 to (Sadik Bey 1915)

 

Cheers


S.B

Edited by stevebecker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Emre,

 

Again many thanks for those most useful details and maps. For my post of Steve’s details to the position of the Turkish Artillery sites at Anzac, based upon the Anzac no. 2 Map, that detail derived from a discussion around the details on the Esad Pasha map of the 4th August 1915, and from memory, probably took place with regard to the old ALH Studies forum that is no longer operational. Steve I have my original hand written notes and sketch maps pertaining to that discussion, plus your copy that I posted, but as I have speculated above it could only be from that old forum, as I have searched not only this forum, but also the ALHA and Axis ones to no avail.

 

jeff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Steve,

 

I have found the post on this forum that your list derived from - Turkish Heavy Artillery at Anzac, by you on the 29th July 2014. Apparently I just did not look hard enough. A most interesting discussion in hindsight to assist with this topic.

 

Jeff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Emre,

 

Many thanks for all the details which you have supplied here

Your help is much appreciated

 

regards

Michael

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My thanks also to Emre for posting the maps.

 

On 29/07/2019 at 05:36, Jeff Pickerd said:

Steve,

 

I have found the post on this forum that your list derived from - Turkish Heavy Artillery at Anzac, by you on the 29th July 2014. Apparently I just did not look hard enough. A most interesting discussion in hindsight to assist with this topic.

 

Jeff

 

Where did those five years go.

 

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate,

 

Yes it was a time when I first started to look at the Ottoman Army, to ballence my main interest in the Camel Corps, and our forces in Egypt and Palestine.

 

When I made a number of asumptions on what I believed they had by the German order of battle.

 

Over the years that view has changed, and as more research into their Army, found I am more enlightened, I hope?

 

S.B

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

Hi all,

A bit late to the show, but the Major (Keith Gordon) Campbell mentioned in this thread is my great-great-uncle. I was wondering if anyone might be able to point me to any other info about his service - at Gallipoli or elsewhere. There are a handful of mentions in The History of the Indian Mountain Artillery, but nothing that might for example explain how he earned his DSO. 

Apologies if this isn't the right place to ask!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello CampbellBros and welcome to the Forum

Captain, then Major Campbell is mentioned over 20 times in the War Diary for the 21st Kohat Mountain Battery at Gallipoli. It can be downloaded via Ancestry or seen at the National Archives at Kew if you can visit. He is probably mentioned in the Brigade War Diary as well but I would need to check. As an aside his wife boarded the transport ship NILE in March 1915 at Port Said bound for Marseilles and UK, the reason given is indulgence.

Regards

Alan

Edited by alantwo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add, Major Campbell is mentioned in the Brigade War Diary, some 30 times, and he is mentioned 52 times in the 26th Jacob's Mountain Battery War Diary. Many of the entries however only give his name and the position of the unit on a particular day.

Alan 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are about nine mentions of Campbell in Maj. A C Furgusson's (aka 'Percussion Sahib') article, originally written in 1916, and published in the journal of the Gallipoli Association, The Gallipolian, number 85, Winter 1997 (pages 19-41)

For The Gallipolian  see https://www.gallipoli-association.org/journals/1997/winter-1997/

Edited by michaeldr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The positions of many batteries are shown on TrenchMapper on the Şevki Paşa or Post Evacuation maps. This is a set of 43 1:5,000 maps drawn immediately after the evacuation, the intention being to preserve the details before natural processes made them fade.

They can be a bit hard to find but this is an example from the north of Map 17. It also shows a small allied cemetery.

In TrenchMapper, right click and choose Gallipoli. Choose maps in the left panel, the Şevki Paşa maps are shown with a Turkish flag at the top of the list.

The symbols used are in the Knowledge Centre->Map Scales and Legend->Turkish.

Howard

Map17 fragment.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The image below is from the excellent The Gallipolian, The Journal of the Gallipoli Association, No.154 - Winter 2020, Campbell is seated front row, far right. The Gallipoli Diary of Captain Kenyon, a fellow officer of Campbell, is serialised over three issues of the Gallipolian Nos 153-155 of which the image forms part. If of interest back copies may be available, I'm sure Michaeldr will be better placed to advise if so than myself.

 

Alan

 

Officers of the 7th Indian Mountain Artillery Brigade.jpg

Edited by alantwo
Spelling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, michaeldr said:

There are about nine mentions of Campbell in Maj. A C Furgusson's (aka 'Percussion Sahib') article, originally written in 1916, and published in the journal of the Gallipoli Association, The Gallipolian, number 85, Winter 1997 (pages 19-41) 

For The Gallipolian  see https://www.gallipoli-association.org/journals/1997/winter-1997/

20 hours ago, alantwo said:

The Gallipoli Diary of Captain Kenyon, a fellow officer of Campbell, is serialised over three issues of the Gallipolian Nos 153-155 of which the image forms part. If of interest back copies may be available, I'm sure Michaeldr will be better placed to advise if so than myself.

Back-numbers of The Gallipolian, the journal of the Gallipoli Association, can be downloaded from the association's website - see https://www.gallipoli-association.org/journals/.

Membership of the association is the only prerequisite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks all, this is really helpful!

23 minutes ago, alantwo said:

DSO, 2nd June 1916, London Gazette Supplement 29608, p5567.

 

Alan

Yeah this much info I had, still trying to work out if it was for anything specific

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 15/01/2023 at 11:03, alantwo said:

Just to add, Major Campbell is mentioned in the Brigade War Diary, some 30 times, and he is mentioned 52 times in the 26th Jacob's Mountain Battery War Diary. Many of the entries however only give his name and the position of the unit on a particular day.

Alan 

Is there any way to get hold of these without going to an archive or getting an Ancestry subscription?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

Yeah this much info I had, still trying to work out if it was for anything specific

Page 5563 of that same London Gazette gives the simple statement that 
“War Office, 
3rd June, 1916. 
His Majesty the KING has been graciously pleased to approve of the undermentioned rewards for Distinguished Service in the Field, dated 3rd June, 1916”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, CampbellBros said:

Is there any way to get hold of these without going to an archive or getting an Ancestry subscription?

If you are in the UK your local library may have free access to Ancestry, though you would need to visit the library. Some library services are available on-line but not Ancestry.

Ancestry have offers from time to time and free trails which might allow you to download the files you want.

Alan

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is an article about the Gallipoli maps on this excellent website https://canakkalemuharebeleri1915.com/makale-ler/87-saban-murat-armutak/501-canakkale-muharebesi-hari-talari which includes
“At the end of the battles, the Turkish side made maps that are considered a great historical artefact today. ... It was ordered to show the fortifications of the two sides, which were fighting in 1914 and 1915, on a comprehensive map, in all details, before being destroyed by the weather and the like, in order to guide in writing the history of the great war on the Seddülbahir, Arıburnu and Anafartalar fronts ... As soon as the enemy withdrew from the Gallipoli Peninsula, the necessary topographer officers were sent to the above-mentioned fronts, by order of the Fifth Army Chief of Staff.” 

It is also explained that these maps are correctly “Fortification Maps” though in English they are often referred to mistakenly as Şevki Pasha Maps (after the officer in charge of the survey, Mehmet Şevki Pasha

At the end of the article there is reproduced the Key to the map symbols used by Mehmet Şevki Pasha.

image.jpeg.994ba90d8a694d004c384e478be1200e.jpeg

The bottom right-hand-corner shows the 4 artillery symbols used. My translation (any mistakes being mine alone) top to bottom are; howitzer, mortar, field gun & mountain gun

As Howard has explained above, the maps can be accessed via https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/trenchmapper-by-the-western-front-association/what-is-trenchmapper/ or they can be found on the Western Front Association's disc 'Mapping The Front – Gallipoli Military Mapping 1914-1918' produced in cooperation with the IWM. This disc is available from the WFA - https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/shop/dvds/mapping-the-front-dvd-gallipoli/ 
or from the Gallipoli Association: https://www.gallipoli-association.org/the-association/quartermasters-store/binders-cds/gallipoli-mapping-the-front/

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In 2009 the Şevki Paşa maps were "re-discovered" in Türkiye and published so the whole set is now available as an A3 paperback. It can be tricky to track down, one I ordered from a bookshop in Istanbul was cancelled without saying why. It is credited to Mehmet Şevki Paşa (Mehmet Şevki Ölçer) despite the fact he died in 1927.

Detail:- Canakkale tahkimat haritasi. [= Fortifications maps of Gallipoli War]. Edited by Ahmet Tetik, Ayse Seven. Ankara: Genelkurmay Askeri Tarih ve Stratejik Etut Baskanligi Yayinlari, 2009. Folio (42x30 cm.), [96] p., colour maps. In Turkish and English. Paperback. New ISBN: 9789754095258.

It contains the maps and a key or legend for each with translations. Some of their translations are a bit odd but it is a very usable book.

It is best to understand why these are important, the planimetry or geometrical accuracy of British Gallipoli maps is very poor, most maps are sketches rather than maps; see the fit achievable on TrenchMapper. The Şevki Paşa maps show with far greater geometric accuracy where things were but without names and of course detail from any date in the campaign is all presented together. For the best geolocation, identify the point on a British map then find it on the Şevki Paşa map, easy in TrenchMapper, especially if you right click and set a marker.

If you look at TrenchMapper->Knowledge Centre->Turkish Maps, there is a link near the top to A Lot more detail. I wrote that last year about these maps after studying them for quite a while. They have a wealth of information. The map legend is also available under Map Scales & Legend in TrenchMapper, re-drawn from the original.

A copy of those help files is on my 1st Middlesex website here.

As part of that study I traced all the visible trenches etc. and animated those in ArcGIS Pro, presented as two experimental YouTube videos. A work in progress.

https://youtu.be/q1utLEJ8kec

https://youtu.be/Exezei1OfTQ

Howard

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...