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westkent78

23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

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westkent78

Sarah,

I've sent you those files. Hope you can open them. If you have trouble let me know and I'll resize the images.

Be best to edit your posts above to delete the email. Spambots have been known to pick up email addresses from forums.

Best regards,

Matthew

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Guest Kiwi Kollector
Matthew,

I also have pictures of:-

Private William Lelsie Gilbert (30/9/15)

2nd Lt. John Henry Sneyd Carew Hunt (16/9/16)

Lieut. Keith Eric Wood (27/5/15)

If you are interested.

Seebold e-mailed to you.

Andy

Hi Matthew

I have found a Verner Pattern VII compass marked K. E. Wood - I am not sure yet if it is the same as your Keith Eric Wood it is a t. Wheeler marked 1915. As your was a Lieut. it is a bit more likely as I gather only officers carried a prismatic compass.

I would be most interested in getting a picture. Also in getting his service record - not sure where to go for this.

Kind regards

Tim

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Jim Strawbridge

Residing in my medal collection is :-

BWM/victory pair named to 703656 PTE. A.TOOMBS. 23-LOND.R.

1914/5 trio to 742 L.CPL. F.C.HUGHES. (the star is impressed to 23-LOND.R. and the BWM and victory to 23.BN.CO.LOND.)

I hope that this is of interest.

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westkent78

Hello Jim,

Thanks for the info. Always good to know of surviving medals.

Do you happen to have a copy of Toombs' medal roll entry from the 18th London roll? I haven't got round to trawling through the rest of the London rolls yet for these transferees.

His 23rd London 4 digit number was 7614 in case you didn't know. Looks like he might have transferred into 23rd London from another regiment while in England (perhaps 3/10th London sometime between March-July 1916) but it's conjecture at this point.

As for Hughes. I haven't gone through the RAF rolls yet either, but I know he moved to the RFC 4/4/16 and attested to the 23rd on 17th/18th Feb 1909. Very interesting to see that the BWM & VM are impressed in that style. Never seen that style before so must be unique to the RAF. Do you happen to know anything about "F.C."?

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78
Hi Matthew

I have found a Verner Pattern VII compass marked K. E. Wood - I am not sure yet if it is the same as your Keith Eric Wood it is a t. Wheeler marked 1915. As your was a Lieut. it is a bit more likely as I gather only officers carried a prismatic compass.

I would be most interested in getting a picture. Also in getting his service record - not sure where to go for this.

Kind regards

Tim

Hello Tim,

Very interesting.

I'll dig out that photo for you.

As to his service record, I think it should be in WO 374 at the National Archives, but I'm not seeing a likely candidate so you may be unlucky and it hasn't survived.

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78

Tim,

Here is a photo of Lt. Keith Eric Wood.

Best regards,

Matthew

post-2343-1257129730.jpg

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dah

Hi Matthew,

I've only recently, through discussion and subsequent visit to France, discovered a great Uncle - Arthur Vincent Josslyn, Private within 1/23rd London Regiment (Service No.2409), killed on 26-5-15 and commemorated on the Le Touret memorial.

Other than this information (from the CWGC site), I know very little about him. What little info I could glean from 'googling' suggests that 1/23 were engaged at Givenchy that day.

Are you able to provide me with any other information about him (and/or the action at Givenchy)- or point me at sources and methods to find out more. I'm not familiar with other WW1 record searching processes.

Grateful for any help you can provide.

David

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westkent78
Hi Matthew,

I've only recently, through discussion and subsequent visit to France, discovered a great Uncle - Arthur Vincent Josslyn, Private within 1/23rd London Regiment (Service No.2409), killed on 26-5-15 and commemorated on the Le Touret memorial.

Other than this information (from the CWGC site), I know very little about him. What little info I could glean from 'googling' suggests that 1/23 were engaged at Givenchy that day.

Are you able to provide me with any other information about him (and/or the action at Givenchy)- or point me at sources and methods to find out more. I'm not familiar with other WW1 record searching processes.

Grateful for any help you can provide.

David

Hello David,

I assume you mean Arthur Vincent Josslyn Bedford?

In 1911 he was living with his parents and his brother Ernest Leslie Josslyn Bedford at 144 Wallwood Road, Leytonstone, and it appears that was where he was living prior to his enlisting on 2nd Sept 1914 at Clapham Junction. (His parents must have moved to Brighton at some point after his death.)

He went to France on 15th March 1915 and was killed on the 26th May. He was only 17, and was known in the family as "Vin", at least according to a postcard I saw a year or so ago.

Check the War Diary here. Naval and Military Press have a reprint of the 23rd London history which should give you some additional background to the events of 25th-26th May, at least until I get round to writing my planned updated regimental history. :lol:

Do you have a photo of Vin you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

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harpman
Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Hello Matthew, I wondered if you could do a lookup for me, I have been researching my great uncle and have become more interested in finding out about his surroundings and the conditions he had to live with on a daily basis. His name was Pte. Frederick Chittock he was with the 7London (City of London) Shiny Seventh, they were part of the 140th Rifle Brigade of the 47th Division. He was transferred from the 25London Cyclist to the 7London and arrived in Halifax Camp, Belgium about the 20th Nov 1916, he was KIA in the Hill 60 sector 12 Jan 1917, so that Nov 1916-Jan1917 period would be the bit I am most interested in, if there is anything documented, that would be great.

Thank you so much, it is very much appreciated.

Good luck with your database

Steve

Harpman

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dah
Hello David,

I assume you mean Arthur Vincent Josslyn Bedford?

In 1911 he was living with his parents and his brother Ernest Leslie Josslyn Bedford at 144 Wallwood Road, Leytonstone, and it appears that was where he was living prior to his enlisting on 2nd Sept 1914 at Clapham Junction. (His parents must have moved to Brighton at some point after his death.)

He went to France on 15th March 1915 and was killed on the 26th May. He was only 17, and was known in the family as "Vin", at least according to a postcard I saw a year or so ago.

Check the War Diary here. Naval and Military Press have a reprint of the 23rd London history which should give you some additional background to the events of 25th-26th May, at least until I get round to writing my planned updated regimental history. :lol:

Do you have a photo of Vin you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Many thanks for your information. I'm afraid we/my mother (whose uncle he was) don't have any photos of 'Vin'....but I will enquire elsewhere in the family and let you know.

I got access to the online war diary - but it seems that the main entry for the events of the attack of 25th & 26th May 1915 are contained in 'Appendix 1' which the online diary did not seem to include.

Has anyone got a copy of this?

Thanks again,

David

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westkent78

David,

I have part of that Appendix. Pm me your email and I'll send it over to you. The Official History has a good explanation of what was happening in the 1/23rd's 'debut'.

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78

Steve,

I'm afraid I don't have much on the 7th and 140th Bde yet. I'd suggest you find copies of the following books:

History of the "Shiny Seventh"

"Cast Iron Sixth" History of the Sixth Battalion London Regiment

History of the Post Office Rifles.

History of the 47th Division.

Naval and Military Press has all of these reprinted at fairly reasonable prices, particularly if you catch one of their sales.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear that the National Archives have digitized the 1/7th diary yet.

To give you an idea what 142nd Bde was doing- November was largely training around Halifax and Dominion Camps. In January they were in and out of the trenches around the Canal Sub-Sector of Ypres, swapping with other Brigades and returning to the the Camps and Dickebusch Huts when out of the line. There appears to have been a steady drip of casualties but I suspect much time was just spent surviving the mud and cold of winter in the Ypres Salient.

Best regards,

Matthew

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redescort

Matthew

I have these five in my database if you have anything more on them would be much appreciated.

Ray

Regt No: 243075

Regt: 5th Suffolk

Surname: Barnard

Forenames: Reginald D

Rank: Private

Other Regt 23rd London Regiment 4265

SWB Ref TK/476

Regt No: 243078

Regt: 5th Suffolk

Surname: Burleigh

Forenames: George Bertie S

Rank: Private

Enlisted: 27/5/1913

Other Regt: 23rd London Regiment 1672

SWB Ref: TK 476

Discharged: 1/10/1917

Cause: Para 2 ( B ) a 1 KR

Theatre of War: 1

Date Entered: 14/3/1915

Regt No: 243079

Regt: 5th Suffolk

Surname: Saunders

Forenames: William John

Rank: Private

Enlisted: 27/5/1913

Other Regt: 23rd London Regiment 2412

Theatre of War: 3

Date Entered: 25/9/1914

Regt No: 243129

Regt: 5th Suffolk

Surname: Stanney

Forenames: Percy E V

Rank: Private

Other Regt: 23rd London Regiment 5220

Regt No: 243081

Regt: 5th Suffolk

Surname: Wall

Forenames: Harry

Rank: Private

Other Regt: 23rd London Regiment 3346

Other Regt: Royal Army Medical Corps 145567

SWB Ref: TK/422

Theatre of War: 1

Date Entered: 17/8/1915

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saraho

Thanks again Matthew for all your help! If I find anymore information or photos I will pass it onto you aswell.

Sarah

Sarah,

I've sent you those files. Hope you can open them. If you have trouble let me know and I'll resize the images.

Be best to edit your posts above to delete the email. Spambots have been known to pick up email addresses from forums.

Best regards,

Matthew

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harpman
Steve,

I'm afraid I don't have much on the 7th and 140th Bde yet. I'd suggest you find copies of the following books:

History of the "Shiny Seventh"

"Cast Iron Sixth" History of the Sixth Battalion London Regiment

History of the Post Office Rifles.

History of the 47th Division.

Naval and Military Press has all of these reprinted at fairly reasonable prices, particularly if you catch one of their sales.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear that the National Archives have digitized the 1/7th diary yet.

To give you an idea what 142nd Bde was doing- November was largely training around Halifax and Dominion Camps. In January they were in and out of the trenches around the Canal Sub-Sector of Ypres, swapping with other Brigades and returning to the the Camps and Dickebusch Huts when out of the line. There appears to have been a steady drip of casualties but I suspect much time was just spent surviving the mud and cold of winter in the Ypres Salient.

Best regards,

Matthew

Hi Matthew, apologies for delay replying i have been away in France. Thanks for taking the time to look and post the suggestions, and the section on what the 142nd were up to.

I have the books "History of the Shiny Seventh" and "History of the 47th Division" they have been a great help in my research. Will have to investigate the other two you mentioned.

I have just checked on the NA website and the 1\7th diary is now available at WO95\2730, I have downloaded a section of it around required dates it makes fascinating reading.

Is it worth me contacting you again in a month or two to see if you have gathered any information on the 7th and 140th brigade?

Best regards

Steve

Harpman

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Guest TerryMc
Hi There

one of my relatives was in the 23rd London Regiment his name was Frank Ruthven. Do you have any info on his service record?

regards

Greg

Frank Leonard Haldane Ruthven is also one of my relatives. Please contact me so we can exchange information!

Terry

mcclenny at juno dot com

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westkent78

Is it worth me contacting you again in a month or two to see if you have gathered any information on the 7th and 140th brigade?

Best regards

Steve

Harpman

Steve,

Glad to hear the 1/7th diary is now online. I'll have to download it.

It's unlikely that I'll have gathered much on the 7th or 140th Bde beyond the books you already have. My plate is more than full with the just the 1/23rd, let alone 142nd Bde, at present. Perhaps in a year or so once I've got a much better understanding of them then I can move onto the rest of the 47th Division.

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78
Matthew

I have these five in my database if you have anything more on them would be much appreciated.

Ray

Ray,

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.

4265 Reginald D.Barnard enlisted 26th-29th May 1915 and probably joined 1/23rd in a draft Sept/Oct 1915. I'd guess that he was another victim of the Somme in Sept/Oct 1916 given his Suffolk number's proximity to Burleigh's.

1672 George Bertie Starr Burleigh- he's a character. Bertie Starr Burleigh (sometimes known as George Bertie Starr Burleigh and Bertie Starr Bennett-Burleigh) joined the 23rd Londons as a Private on 27th May 1913 and went to France on 14 March 1915. Bertie was born in 1897. He lived with his parents in Clapham. There was a cutting in the Observer of 1 October 1916 about "Corporal George Bennett Burleigh" speaking to the King and Queen at the Edward VII Hospital about his narrow escape from death after "killing 11 Huns" etc on the Somme on 15/16th Sept 1916. Bertie, survived the war and joined the RAF in WW2. He was the son of Bennet Burleigh the Daily Telegraph's famous war correspondent. Lets just say that Bertie seems to have gilded the lily in his dealings with the King and Press with regard to his time in France. Member "Moriaty" can fill you in more on Bertie as she's been researching the Burleighs, although there might be a bit more on him a page or so back in this thread.

2412 William John Saunders enlisted 2nd Sept 1914. (At least going by his number that's the day it was allocated-I think you've transcribed Burleigh's dates here, or the clerk did). This poses an issue in that he then gets shipped to Egypt and arrives 27 days later! I'd guess he enlisted but had some special skill which was required immediately in Egypt and he never actually served with 23rd, even on Home Service. He's definitely a rarity as all the men around his number went on to serve in 1/23rd and went over to France on 15th Mar 1915.

5220 Percy E.V. Stanney is one of those men who probably enlisted/were called up in Dec 1915 but didn't actually report to the depot until around April 1916. Looking at the men around him I can infer that there is a strong possibility he went to 1/23rd on the 14th August 1916 draft.

3346 Harry Wall enlisted between 10th-16th Nov 1914. He was probably injured/sent home sick in Sept/Oct 1916 as that's as long as most of his 17/8/15 draft lasted with 1/23rd.

Do you have any idea which battalion of 5th Suffolks these men served with, or when their numbers were allocated? I have assumed in the past that they were with the Home Service battalion (3/5th) due to wounds, sickness. I assume from the lack of details that the Suffolks' medal roll doesn't have dates of entry into theatres?

Hope this helps,

Matthew

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stephen p nunn
Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Matthew - just seen this. I have 2 Maldon/Heybridge men who served in the 'Battersea Boozers':

Private Arthur Lewis CROSS. KIA 22/8/1918 whilst with the East Surrey Regiment (29120).

Private Ernest John MYALL (5775) KIA 16/9/1916 previously with the Essex Regiment.

PM me if you would like the personal profiles I have on these two.

Regards.

SPN

Maldon.

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harpman
Steve,

Glad to hear the 1/7th diary is now online. I'll have to download it.

It's unlikely that I'll have gathered much on the 7th or 140th Bde beyond the books you already have. My plate is more than full with the just the 1/23rd, let alone 142nd Bde, at present. Perhaps in a year or so once I've got a much better understanding of them then I can move onto the rest of the 47th Division.

Best regards,

Matthew

Hi Matthew, I wish you well creating your database, a hell of a lot of work, I can only imagine.

The books on the 7London have been very useful, the war diary was a real bonus, plus the valuable information that members have very kindly sent me, just a case now of writing everything up on Pte F E Chittock. Then I have two other great uncles to start work on !! should keep me busy through the winter months and beyond I would imagine.

Best wishes

Steve

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Guest aliswebmail@yahoo.co.uk
Bonjour Yves,

Welcome to the forum.

So that's where the Houston group ended up- hope you still have the ephemera with it. Good to know where Mumford's DCM is too.

1. 2197 William Mumford (700390) Entered France & Flanders with 1/23rd 14/3/15, left 30/9/16. Returned 13/12/16 and remained in F&F until 8/12/18. His DCM was gazetted in the London Gazette 30 May 1919 (supplement 3 June 1919 p. 6854) and indicates he was from Fulham. I haven't found a citation for him yet. It doesn't look like his papers have survived but he would have attested most likely on 20th Aug 1914 (slight possibility of 21st).

Hope this helps,

Matthew

Hi, I'm delighted to have come across this forum. I've been researching may family for some time, but had very little to go on on my late father's side. He'd lost both parents by the age of 20 and I had no relatives and few documents to consult. All I knew was that my grandfather was William Mumford who came from London, was in the army in the Great War, was gassed, married and settled in Luton. I found out a great deal more through the usual resources but had pretty much drawn a blank finding out anything about his military service. In the last few days I went through everything I could find and came to the conclusion that he was in 23rd London, as I think his brother Richard Henry was. With that information I did a google search and quickly found this forum.

The details you have provided are fascinating and seeing the post from Yves about the medal quite thrilling. Matthew, I don't know what sort of information you would like about William, but I now have quite a bit. I can tell you that his family were indeed from Fulham, previous generations having lived in Ealing, Chiswick, Hammersmith etc. He was born in 1888 and was married in Luton on 26th January 1918, my grandmother's family having moved up to Luton from the East End in about 1913. I don't know if he was involved in the Peace day riots in Luton where the town hall was burned down, but it's a great story. He went on to work at the Laporte chemical works in Luton. He had three children and died in 1948 in Luton. Please let me know if there's other information you'd like. I only have one photo of him, probably from the 1940s.

I would be very grateful indeed for further information, I'd love to know when he may have been gassed and whether there might have been any significance to him marrying in 1918. My father used to say that William wasn't expected to live long having been gassed, which affected his pension in some way, but I don't fully understand this. If there might be more photos I would love to see them of course.

As for the medal, I would love to hear more from Yves about this, a real gem for me.

Thanks for the great job being done on this forum,

Alison

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redescort
Ray,

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you.

4265 Reginald D.Barnard enlisted 26th-29th May 1915 and probably joined 1/23rd in a draft Sept/Oct 1915. I'd guess that he was another victim of the Somme in Sept/Oct 1916 given his Suffolk number's proximity to Burleigh's.

1672 George Bertie Starr Burleigh- he's a character. Bertie Starr Burleigh (sometimes known as George Bertie Starr Burleigh and Bertie Starr Bennett-Burleigh)

2412 William John Saunders enlisted 2nd Sept 1914. (At least going by his number that's the day it was allocated-I think you've transcribed Burleigh's dates here, or the clerk did).

Do you have any idea which battalion of 5th Suffolks these men served with, or when their numbers were allocated? I have assumed in the past that they were with the Home Service battalion (3/5th) due to wounds, sickness. I assume from the lack of details that the Suffolks' medal roll doesn't have dates of entry into theatres?

Hope this helps,

Matthew

Matthew

All the information I have is from the MIC's.

You say that Reginald D.Barnard was a victim of the Somme in Sept/Oct 1916 I assume you mean he was wounded on the Somme with 23rd Londons then when he was fit transferred to the 5th Suffolks in Egypt/Palestine.

At the moment no idea whether it was 2/5th or 3/5th battalion hopefully one day I will get to the NA and check out the medal rolls.

Looks like I made an error and put Burleigh's enlistment date down for Saunders.

Many thanks

Ray

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westkent78

Ray,

Yes, I think Barnard may have been wounded, or at least sent sick back to England in that timeframe.

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78
Hi, I'm delighted to have come across this forum. I've been researching may family for some time, but had very little to go on on my late father's side. He'd lost both parents by the age of 20 and I had no relatives and few documents to consult. All I knew was that my grandfather was William Mumford who came from London, was in the army in the Great War, was gassed, married and settled in Luton. I found out a great deal more through the usual resources but had pretty much drawn a blank finding out anything about his military service. In the last few days I went through everything I could find and came to the conclusion that he was in 23rd London, as I think his brother Richard Henry was. With that information I did a google search and quickly found this forum.

The details you have provided are fascinating and seeing the post from Yves about the medal quite thrilling. Matthew, I don't know what sort of information you would like about William, but I now have quite a bit. I can tell you that his family were indeed from Fulham, previous generations having lived in Ealing, Chiswick, Hammersmith etc. He was born in 1888 and was married in Luton on 26th January 1918, my grandmother's family having moved up to Luton from the East End in about 1913. I don't know if he was involved in the Peace day riots in Luton where the town hall was burned down, but it's a great story. He went on to work at the Laporte chemical works in Luton. He had three children and died in 1948 in Luton. Please let me know if there's other information you'd like. I only have one photo of him, probably from the 1940s.

I would be very grateful indeed for further information, I'd love to know when he may have been gassed and whether there might have been any significance to him marrying in 1918. My father used to say that William wasn't expected to live long having been gassed, which affected his pension in some way, but I don't fully understand this. If there might be more photos I would love to see them of course.

As for the medal, I would love to hear more from Yves about this, a real gem for me.

Thanks for the great job being done on this forum,

Alison

Hello Alison,

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the details on William.

It's very hard to determine when he might have been gassed considering the length of time he served, but one possibility might be December 1917 when the battalion was in Bourlon Wood and suffered quite severely from gas, which might tie in with him being in England in January 1918 to get married as he recuperated. Realistically I don't think we're going to know unless his papers turn up or you discover a letter or army form mentioning it.

Richard Henry was also in the 23rd London, though I'm not sure which battalion he was serving in at this point and he may have been attached from/to 21st London as he has a 21st London number, 654274. He entered France & Flanders 1st October 1918 and returned home 8th October 1919.

Hope this helps,

Matthew

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eddie pullen

Hi Matthew,

In reply to your request for the 23rd London regiment, I wonder if you can throw any light on a family mystery that has existed since 1918. My Great Uncle, Ernest Pullen enlisted in the 2/ 23rd London Regiment, his number was originally 5904 later 702605 pte. He survived the war, I know this because I have a field post card posted home after the 11th November 1918, but he himself never returned and was never heard of again, depite various searches at the time.

I have a copy of his medal record which I would like to send to you if possible (although I have not been able to upload it as the file size is too large), which throws up a couple of questions that you may be able to answer. One of which is that in the remarks column it states RETD. (1743KR), does this mean Kings Regulations and if so which one?

Hoping that you can help with my problem but anyway you have another recruit for your database.

Best Wishes

Eddie Pullen

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