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westkent78

23rd (County of London) Battalion, the London Regiment

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jaypee

Matthew,

I have been given your thread to inform you of a memeber of the 23rd you may find of interest his name was CSM William Frederick Dachtler 700861.enlisted 6 Oct 1914 and served 4 yrs and 155 days in the 23rd Btn London Regt.

I have his discharged documents from ancestry and was interested to see that he was awarded a DCM, was MiD and was taken Prisoner of War

I have a citation extract from the London Gazette of his "conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty"

From his records it was awarded 25 May 1917 poss in Loos or Lan gary ??(but cant read the print) any ideas on what the regiment was involved in? It states "reconnoitred the enemy's position under difficult conditions"

He spent 3 years 10 days in France before being taken prisoner (reported missing 30 Mar 1918) officially accepted in German hands 21 Mar 1918, I think. Having spent 266days was repat 15 Dec 1918.

He was given a statement of disability but I cannot make out the reason for this. My mother-in-law has a photograph of him in uniform which I will have to get a copy.

Hope this is of use, please dont hesitate for more details

Any info in return particularly the DCM and PoW episodes

rgds

Jon

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westkent78

Jon,

I've attempted to answer your questions here so you can keep everything together in one thread.

The "Loos" or "Lan Gary" is actually "L.G." for London Gazette.

Best regards,

Matthew

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stubblejumper

Hi Matthew

Just saw this 23rd Londons group on a dealers list...MM + BWM + VM to705176 Pte A.J. Dawkins. MM gazetted 20th August 1919.

Shant be buying them my self !!!!!!! considering what i paid for my group :rolleyes: . Thought id let you know they are out there.

Regards

Brian

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Robert Dale

Dear Matthew

My Great Uncle George Alan Dale joined the 23rd Londons at the start of the Great War (attesting on 20 August 1914 in Clapham) and was sent to France in March 1915. He was there only until the end of April, when he seems to have suffered a gun shot wound to the knee, and was sent home. He transferred to the 3rd battalion in September 1915. At the end of the war he was promoted to Corporal and went to Murmansk as part of Syren Force, where he was promoted to Acting Sergeant. He continued to serve with the Territorials after the war for a number of years as an Orderly Room Clerk.

I don't know whether you might hold any other information on him, but good luck with your project.

Robert

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westkent78
Hi Matthew

Just saw this 23rd Londons group on a dealers list...MM + BWM + VM to705176 Pte A.J. Dawkins. MM gazetted 20th August 1919.

Shant be buying them my self !!!!!!! considering what i paid for my group :rolleyes: . Thought id let you know they are out there.

Regards

Brian

Hello Brian,

Thanks for thinking of me.

They've been on his site for some time but I think they were recently sold/traded and he hasn't updated his site yet.

Groups do occasionally come up- hadn't seen a 'new' MM group for quite a while and then two emerged within a couple of weeks last year- always the way!

Best regards,

Matthew

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westkent78
Dear Matthew

My Great Uncle George Alan Dale joined the 23rd Londons at the start of the Great War (attesting on 20 August 1914 in Clapham) and was sent to France in March 1915. He was there only until the end of April, when he seems to have suffered a gun shot wound to the knee, and was sent home. He transferred to the 3rd battalion in September 1915. At the end of the war he was promoted to Corporal and went to Murmansk as part of Syren Force, where he was promoted to Acting Sergeant. He continued to serve with the Territorials after the war for a number of years as an Orderly Room Clerk.

I don't know whether you might hold any other information on him, but good luck with your project.

Robert

Hello Robert,

Thanks for sharing that information. I've now found his WO 363 papers. He's the only man from the 23rd I've come across so far who made it to Russia, so quite an interesting story to research.

The war diary doesn't name him but it looks like at 11 p.m. a working party of 2 Officers and 100 men went out to "Indian Village" near Le Touret and he was the only casualty that night.

The medal roll indicates entry into France 15/3/15 and he left on 9/5/15, then his trip to Russia 28/9/18 to 7/3/19.

Do you have a photo of him you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

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Robert Dale

Dear Matthew

Many thanks for your response. George's papers refer to Le Touret in connection with his wound, so the working party you refer to sound like the right event. I wonder what happened - accident, sniper, sheer bad luck?

George spent the rest of the war in England (until going out to Russia) and appears to have worked in some kind of administratvie capacity - the papers mention the records section I think. There is also an intriguing reference to him spending some time with what looks to me like "108th Prov Bn" (though the script is a bit hard to decipher). Since he later worked in the British Transport Police, might that be a reference to Provosts?

Next time I get to Kew, I certianly intend to look at the papers relating to the Murmansk expedition. George's wound was still affecting him then, as he came home from Russia in March 1919 suffering from synovitis of the knee and was hopitalised in London for a number of weeks.

I don't think we have a photograph - but will see what I can find (there are no descendants, unfortunately). And we don't have his medals either - though we do have his long service medal from the BTP.

Best wishes

Robert

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adrianW

Hi Matthew,

My paternal Grandfather, Edward Lauezzari served with the 23rd County of London Regiment during WW1. He was a Private and sometime L/Corporal and his numbers were 705091/614027. Due to eyesight problems sometime in 1917 he was transfered to a Labour Corps. He served in France and survived the war and was discharged in May 1919. He was born in Battersea and I believe he was living in Clapham when he joined up in June 1915.

I have several question: I know the Labour Corps were created in 1917; would Edward's Labour Corp still have been part of the 23rd Londons. Is it possible to identify when he was likely to have been in France and if so what actions he may have taken part in.

Thanks

Snowy

Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

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westkent78

Hello Snowy,

Thanks for getting in touch.

He was a lance corporal at some point in 1915 as I have a very poor quality group picture of 3/23rd London's NCOs which purports to include a L/Cpl. Lauerzzari (sic).

It appears he didn't make it overseas until 1917 at the earliest, as otherwise he would have had a 4 digit number on his medal index card. He would have transferred out of the 23rd London and into the Labour Corps in a completely separate unit. Ivor Lee might be able to help determine which unit Edward wound up in.

His six digit regimental number in 23rd London is in one of the areas where I'm still trying to decifer what was going on. Most of the early 705*** men are transferees from other regiments who entered 1/23rd while already in France but their dates of service with the battalion begin in mid 1918 and numbering doesn't seem to conform to chronological order.

The man whose six digit number precedes Edward's attested on 20th May 1915 as 4072 but I'm unsure why he wasn't re-numbered in 1917 in the usual order [he should have received a number in the range 701323-701325]. This man, Luke King, went to France in Sept 1915 but returned to UK that November and only returned to France in May 1918 with his 705090 number. Perhaps he was slated for pensioning in 1917 when re-numbering was happening and they missed him out of the sequence; only for him to recover sufficiently for him to need a new number in 1918. This could equally apply to Edward. To be honest I'm not that happy with this proposed explanation.

If Edward did join in June 1915 then I'd expect him to have a 4 digit number in the range 4316-4525.

Unfortunately, as with most of these 705*** men, it appears his papers haven't survived. Did you get the information you have provided from family sources or do you have some surviving paperwork?

Best regards,

Matthew

post-2343-1244481008.jpg

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macka57

Hi I'm new to the Forum and have joined hoping to find out more about my great uncle and the 23rd Battalion he served in. His name was James Harry Hawkins, he was a private in the 23rd Battalion and he died aged 21 on 10 May 1917 according to the CWGC record. He's the only close member of my family who I know to have died in the Great War but after my mother was evacuated to Newcastle from near Tilbury after the Battle of Britain we have completely lost touch with her fathers side of the family.

James Hawkins is buried at Lijssenhoek Military Cemetery. His service numbers are quoted as being 702389 and 5632. I have found the war diary for the 23rd Battalion on the National Archives site and they seem to have been moved forward from the Ottawa Camp around that time in May 1917 and suffered some casualties but not on 10th May so he may have died from wounds perhaps?

I'm not very familiar with researching military records and wondered if there are any particular sites I could visit for more information or if any members have relevant information that would help please?

Francis

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westkent78
Hi I'm new to the Forum and have joined hoping to find out more about my great uncle and the 23rd Battalion he served in. His name was James Harry Hawkins, he was a private in the 23rd Battalion and he died aged 21 on 10 May 1917 according to the CWGC record. He's the only close member of my family who I know to have died in the Great War but after my mother was evacuated to Newcastle from near Tilbury after the Battle of Britain we have completely lost touch with her fathers side of the family.

James Hawkins is buried at Lijssenhoek Military Cemetery. His service numbers are quoted as being 702389 and 5632. I have found the war diary for the 23rd Battalion on the National Archives site and they seem to have been moved forward from the Ottawa Camp around that time in May 1917 and suffered some casualties but not on 10th May so he may have died from wounds perhaps?

I'm not very familiar with researching military records and wondered if there are any particular sites I could visit for more information or if any members have relevant information that would help please?

Francis

Hello Francis,

Welcome to the forum.

James Henry Hawkins did die of wounds on 10th May 1917. His papers have luckily survived and are in the "Service Papers" on Ancestry.com - he has two sets. here and here.

It appears he transferred from the KRRC with a number of his colleagues in time for the 1/23rd London's build up for the Somme Offensive. 1/23rd did lose 5 wounded on 10th/11th May and it appears he may have been taken to No.2 Canadian CCS where he succumbed.

To save you spending a fortune on the National Archives website you can download the relevant war diaries here.

Hope this is some help.

Best regards,

Matthew

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macka57
Hello Francis,

Welcome to the forum.

James Henry Hawkins did die of wounds on 10th May 1917. His papers have luckily survived and are in the "Service Papers" on Ancestry.com - he has two sets. here and here.

It appears he transferred from the KRRC with a number of his colleagues in time for the 1/23rd London's build up for the Somme Offensive. 1/23rd did lose 5 wounded on 10th/11th May and it appears he may have been taken to No.2 Canadian CCS where he succumbed.

To save you spending a fortune on the National Archives website you can download the relevant war diaries here.

Hope this is some help.

Best regards,

Matthew

Matthew

Many thanks for the quick and informative reply. I've followed your leads to the Ancestry site and the war diaries. Are you aware of any other Hawkins in the 23rd Battalion?

Francis

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westkent78

Francis,

Yes, there were quite a few which is unsurprising with such a prevalent surname. None of those of which I'm aware appear to have been directly related to James Henry though and none followed his route from KRRC to 23rd London.

I'd suggest finding out which regiments actively recruited in East Ham and you might find more Hawkins relatives- perhaps Royal Fusiliers, KRRC, Essex Regt might be the way to start.

Best regards,

Matthew

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macka57
Francis,

Yes, there were quite a few which is unsurprising with such a prevalent surname. None of those of which I'm aware appear to have been directly related to James Henry though and none followed his route from KRRC to 23rd London.

I'd suggest finding out which regiments actively recruited in East Ham and you might find more Hawkins relatives- perhaps Royal Fusiliers, KRRC, Essex Regt might be the way to start.

Best regards,

Matthew

Matthew

Thanks again.

Francis

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Guest Leolady
Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Hi

A kind person has referred me to you and told me you might be able to help me.

I have found out that my grandfather Pte John James PURCHASE reg no:- 702670 served with 1/23rd bn London Regiment (TF). I have also found out that he was awarded the Military Medal. That is as much as I have been able to find out about him.

I am trying to find out where he served and what he won his medal for. I would be most grateful if you could help me.

Thank you

Jackie

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westkent78
Hi

A kind person has referred me to you and told me you might be able to help me.

I have found out that my grandfather Pte John James PURCHASE reg no:- 702670 served with 1/23rd bn London Regiment (TF). I have also found out that he was awarded the Military Medal. That is as much as I have been able to find out about him.

I am trying to find out where he served and what he won his medal for. I would be most grateful if you could help me.

Thank you

Jackie

Jackie,

I'll have a root around to see what I can dig up regarding his MM.

His first regimental number (5975) indicates that he was posted to 23rd London between 12th-14th June 1916 and he had probably attested for service in mid-December 1915.

I can tell you that the medal roll indicates that he entered France on 19th October 1916 and returned to U.K. on 14th April 1919. It appears all his service was with 1/23rd London.

Best regards,

Matthew

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Guest Leolady
Jackie,

I'll have a root around to see what I can dig up regarding his MM.

His first regimental number (5975) indicates that he was posted to 23rd London between 12th-14th June 1916 and he had probably attested for service in mid-December 1915.

I can tell you that the medal roll indicates that he entered France on 19th October 1916 and returned to U.K. on 14th April 1919. It appears all his service was with 1/23rd London.

Best regards,

Matthew

Thank you for this information Matthew.

I was only about 5 when this grandad died and this information has brought him to life for me.

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Yves Le Cuziat, MBE
Some of you may be aware of this, but for those who aren't, I am compiling a database of all the men who joined the 23rd Londons in the Great War.

I currently have over 3,000 individuals identified and my nominal roll continues to grow each month, but there is definitely a long way to go.

Any information, however insignificant it may seem, is gratefully received.

If you are researching another regiment and come across someone who served for a period in the 23rd Londons I like to hear from you with any details you care to share.

I am also in a position to undertake look-ups in the war diary, regimental history and 47th Division History.

Matthew

Dear Matthew,

I am a 52 years old "Froggie" who is interested by British History! (paticularly by WWII, because I live in Normandy in the D Day area. I have many veterans friends and is in charge since many years to welcome them. For this HM the Queen awarded me a MBE 4 years ago)

Also, because my 2 Grand Dads were veterans of WW1 I am also interesting by the First World War.

I just arrived on the Great War Forum and seen your message.

I have 3 medals group of men of the 23rd London Regiment. Perhaps can you help me to have informations about them.

1°) 700390 Cpl W. MUMFORD 1/23 LONDON R. (Distinguished Conduct Medal)

2°) 4848 Pte S.R. WILSON 23 LONDON R. (British War Medal & Victory Medal)

3°) 6160 Pte H. HOUSTON 23 LONDON R. (British War Medal, Victory Medal & Memorial Plaque) KIA 24/08/1917 with 8th Bn, KRRC (Why was he changed units? and why medals engraved with is 23 London R. number? (In 8th Bn KRRC Army number A/201102)

Thank you for your help

Best wihes

Yves

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westkent78
I have 3 medals group of men of the 23rd London Regiment. Perhaps can you help me to have informations about them.

1°) 700390 Cpl W. MUMFORD 1/23 LONDON R. (Distinguished Conduct Medal)

2°) 4848 Pte S.R. WILSON 23 LONDON R. (British War Medal & Victory Medal)

3°) 6160 Pte H. HOUSTON 23 LONDON R. (British War Medal, Victory Medal & Memorial Plaque) KIA 24/08/1917 with 8th Bn, KRRC (Why was he changed units? and why medals engraved with is 23 London R. number? (In 8th Bn KRRC Army number A/201102)

Bonjour Yves,

Welcome to the forum.

So that's where the Houston group ended up- hope you still have the ephemera with it. Good to know where Mumford's DCM is too.

1. 2197 William Mumford (700390) Entered France & Flanders with 1/23rd 14/3/15, left 30/9/16. Returned 13/12/16 and remained in F&F until 8/12/18. His DCM was gazetted in the London Gazette 30 May 1919 (supplement 3 June 1919 p. 6854) and indicates he was from Fulham. I haven't found a citation for him yet. It doesn't look like his papers have survived but he would have attested most likely on 20th Aug 1914 (slight possibility of 21st).

2. 4848 Stanley Rawe Willson (701784) Entered France & Flanders with 1/23rd 14/7/16 and left 19/9/16, probably wounded around High Wood. Returned to F&F 30/3/17 until 4/4/18- so potentially a POW.

3. 6160 Hugh Houston. Can't help you too much with him as I don't have the KRRC rolls, but if he follows the men with numbers around him then he probably enlisted in the Suffolk Regt., was transferred to 1/23rd London when he crossed to F&F on 30/6/16 and then served with 1/16th London 12/7/16. The likelihood is that he may have been wounded around High Wood with 1/16th but if not then he'd be back to 1/23rd on 28/9/16 and serve with them until wounding/illness and subsequent recovery made him available for transfer to KRRC. His medals are to 23rd London as that's the regiment he was serving in when he entered France, despite the fact that conceivably he may not have served in 1/23rd at the front at all (1/16th wounded at High Wood and on recovery goes straight to KRRC).

Hope this helps,

Matthew

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Yves Le Cuziat, MBE
Bonjour Yves,

Welcome to the forum.

So that's where the Houston group ended up- hope you still have the ephemera with it. Good to know where Mumford's DCM is too.

1. 2197 William Mumford (700390) Entered France & Flanders with 1/23rd 14/3/15, left 30/9/16. Returned 13/12/16 and remained in F&F until 8/12/18. His DCM was gazetted in the London Gazette 30 May 1919 (supplement 3 June 1919 p. 6854) and indicates he was from Fulham. I haven't found a citation for him yet. It doesn't look like his papers have survived but he would have attested most likely on 20th Aug 1914 (slight possibility of 21st).

2. 4848 Stanley Rawe Willson (701784) Entered France & Flanders with 1/23rd 14/7/16 and left 19/9/16, probably wounded around High Wood. Returned to F&F 30/3/17 until 4/4/18- so potentially a POW.

3. 6160 Hugh Houston. Can't help you too much with him as I don't have the KRRC rolls, but if he follows the men with numbers around him then he probably enlisted in the Suffolk Regt., was transferred to 1/23rd London when he crossed to F&F on 30/6/16 and then served with 1/16th London 12/7/16. The likelihood is that he may have been wounded around High Wood with 1/16th but if not then he'd be back to 1/23rd on 28/9/16 and serve with them until wounding/illness and subsequent recovery made him available for transfer to KRRC. His medals are to 23rd London as that's the regiment he was serving in when he entered France, despite the fact that conceivably he may not have served in 1/23rd at the front at all (1/16th wounded at High Wood and on recovery goes straight to KRRC).

Hope this helps,

Matthew

Hi Matthew

Thank you very much for the informations. It is wonderfull!

Yves

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saraho

Hi Matthew,

I am new to the Forum and have joined hoping to find out more about my great grandad and great-uncle as they both served with the 23rd London Battalion in WW1, and if not, hopefully sharing with you the little information that I have.

My great Grandad was Thomas Proctor and as far as I know he was a private in the 23rd Battalion. That’s the only info I really have. I know he was in Egypt at one point, and I think also in Jerusalem.

My great grand-uncle was Robert Albert Proctor. He was also a Private in th 23 London Battalion. His service number was 702274, but I think he also had another number, i'm not sure if it's the right number : 75810, R.A.M.C. He was killed on the 1 January 1918, aged 20 and I think he is buried in the Jerusalem war cemetary.

I was wondering if you might have any further information on either of these men. Or if you could point me in the right direction in researching military records or if there are any particular sites I could visit for more information.

Thanks so much for your time,

Sarah

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westkent78

Hello Sarah,

Welcome to the forum.

Robert Albert Proctor:

He would have initially joined the RAMC as 75810 (possibly Oct/Nov 1915?) and been transferred along with approximately 120 other RAMC men from the North and West to 2/23rd London (possibly in May) before they left for France in June 1916. His numbers with 2/23rd were 5492 & 702274.

He entered France on 26 Jun 1916 and remained with the battalion when they moved to Salonika on 3rd Dec 1916. After landing there on 14th Dec he remained in Salonika until 15 Jun 1917 when the battalion transferred to Egypt, landing on 18th Jun 1917.

In the attack on the Bireh Ram Allah Line on 29th Dec 1917 2/23rd lost 1 man killed and 8 wounded, one of which I suspect was your great granduncle, as he is listed as having died of wounds on 1st Jan 1918 and there doesn't appear to be any other casualties between 29th Dec and 1st Jan. The battalion captured the objective and took 16 prisoners.

You can view the 2/23rd War Diary here.

Ancestry haven't put the "P" service files online yet which might yield the full story, but I wouldn't hold out much hope as I've been finding very few of these RAMC transferees' files have survived.

Thomas Proctor:

I have been unable to find him in the rolls I have for 23rd London. Unless he joined up at roughly the same time as Robert and went into the RAMC and was transferred the same way I think it unlikely that he served with the 2/23rd overseas.

What I'd suggest doing would be to start a new thread with him as the subject and put as much biographical information about him pre-war as you can, and see where the forum leads you. It looks like there are at least a couple of hundred Thomas Proctor/Procter candidates who served overseas. Ancestry.co.uk is the site you probably need to whittle these candidates down as they have the Medal Index Cards and eventually will have the surviving "P" service files. Another helpful site for discarding candidates will be the Commonwealth War Graves Commission as it sounds like he survived.

Hope this helps.

Do you have a photo of Robert you could share?

Best regards,

Matthew

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saraho

Hi Matthew,

Thank you so much for all the information. Its so interesting to know what Robert was doing and where he was. We didn't know when he had joined up. It has definetly been a lot easier to find information on him and I had always thought that the brothers had been together during the war. After your message yesterday I had a look again for anymore info on Thomas. I found some of his medals with the inscription T-854 DVR. T.Proctor A.S.C. Would you know what regiment he was with from this? We had always thought he was in Gallipoli at some point. I have attached a photograph of Thomas and Robert in Cairo (its the original, I will try and attach my retouched version). If they weren't in the same Battalion would you know why they were in Cairo at the same time? Sorry for all the questions! Thanks again for your help.

Sarah

post-50294-1255684942.jpg

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saraho

here is the newer version of the picture, I spent quite a while cleaning it up. It is definetly alot clearer.

Thomas (seated), Robert (standing)

post-50294-1255687131.jpg

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westkent78

Hello Sarah,

You did a very good job retouching that photo. Definitely worth the effort. Thanks for posting. I assume Thomas is seated and Robert standing?

With the additional information on Thomas' medals I've found his medal index card. He was in the Army Service Corps. and later the Royal Welch Fusiliers. It looks like he entered Egypt 5th Nov 1914 as T/854 and at some point was renumbered to T4/244956. When he transferred to the R.W.F. sometime post 1916 he was issued with 292895. I have a feeling he might have been a territorial as his RWF number certainly is and the ASC numbers might be (I'm not very knowledgeable about ASC). He was disembodied 8th March 1919.

You'll need to check the medal rolls at the National Archives to find out which ASC companies and RWF battalion he was in. The medal index card provides the codes- pm me your email address and I'll send the image of the card to you (as well as the page of the 23rd London roll for Robert).

If you haven't already, try exploring the Long Long Trail for some background.

Best regards,

Matthew

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