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Remembered Today:

Why is his regimental number only three numbers long?


charlielavin

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Inspired by the replies in my last posting I've decided to throw this on the floor. On my great grandfather's medal card his reg. number is given as 179. Is this common? Why is it so low....is it because he was a foundering member of one of the TF's (as previously suggested). If anyone else has come by this let me know!

Cheers Charlotte.

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Almost certainly this is because of his early service in the Territorial Force (and very possibly in the Volunteer battalion that may have preceeded it - if any - prior to 1908). CSgt William Flint of the Liverpool Scottish (10 KLR) went to France and Flanders on 1 November 1914 and has an MIC with the number 10 and there are other similar instances. This is number that would appear on his 1914 Star. There is another MIC with his later six figure number. If your great grandfather served beyond 1916 he may well have a further medal index card with a different (possibly six figure) number following the renumbering of the Territorials. This would appear on his British War Medal and his Victory Medal. If he didn't survive beyond that date, I guess they would show the three figure number.

Ian

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Just to add to the previous post: when the six figure numbers were introduced, Flint took pole position at the front of the Liverpool Scottish block to become 355001. Just as there was no Year 0 AD in Christian year numbering but the Christian era started with 1 AD (or 1 CE in more modern usage and I think there is another abbreviation in use), the block did not start at 355000 but 355001.

Ian

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This number is entirely probable, the lowest number I have on my ever-growing list of Notts and Derby men is 2, for an Ernest Huthwaite who enlisted 13/08/1906.

I'm sure one of the Notts and Derby experts will pop along and trump that.

What I can tell you is that, assuming I have the right man (you have mentioned no name but the other info all fits) no. 179 was discharged on 03/05/1916, probably due to wounds/sickness. This information comes from the 1915 star medal roll. As yet, I haven't come across him in the lists of War badges which I am compiling. I assume his date of discharge would make him eligable for such a badge though.

A quick search of the MIC database didn't suggest there was another card for a different TF number, but with a discharge date as above, he may have missed the renumbering which was going on from around about the same time onwards, I believe.

Hope this sheds some light.

James

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Below are listed the Notts and Derby Regiment medals that I have in my collection. All with service numbers up to 517 are NCOs. From 564 onwards they are rankers. The N & D is not the only regiment to issue service numbers to the serving NCOs first. There is a bit of a myth that these low service numbers always relate to Territorials but sometimes it was the longest servers that were issued with them.

NOTTS.& DERBY 8 SJT A.PHILLIPSON. BWM -

NOTTS.& DERBY 21 W.O.CL.2. J.SMART. vcty -

NOTTS:& DERBY 89 SJT W.MORMAN. star -

NOTTS.& DERBY 225 SJT. W.BARTON. vcty -

NOTTS.& DERBY 340 W.O.CL.2. D.TOMLIN. vcty pair

NOTTS.& DERBY 340 Q.M.SJT D.TOMLIN. star pair

NOTTS.& DERBY 403 SJT. T.HOLMES. star -

NOTTS.& DERBY 426 W.O.CL.2. J.CROSS. BWM pair

NOTTS:& DERBY 426 C.Q.M.SJT J.CROSS. star pair

NOTTS:& DERBY 517 SJT C.W.EDDINGS. star -

NOTTS.& DERBY 564 PTE. W.HURT. BWM -

NOTTS:& DERBY 846 PTE F.PENNISTON. star trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 846 PTE. F.PENNISTON. BWM trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 846 PTE. F.PENNISTON. vcty trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 857 CPL. E.PEPPER. vcty trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 857 CPL. E.PEPPER, star trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 857 CPL. E.PEPPER. BWM trio

NOTTS & DERBY 919 CPL. G.BARTLES. BWM -

NOTTS:& DERB: 923 PTE W.CLARK. star -

NOTTS.& DERBY 957 PTE. W.ARMITAGE. vcty -

NOTTS.& DERBY 976 CPL. H.J.ASHOVER. vcty trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 976 PTE. H.J.ASHOVER. star trio

NOTTS.& DERBY 976 CPL. H.J.ASHOVER/ BWM trio

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Just a thought but one of my ancestors' MIC shows his regimental number as three figures where as on his service record it is infact 5! The last 2 have been missed off when the MIC has been scanned.

It's a possibility ^_^

Shellyj

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Hi Charlotte

There are two N & D men with a 179 number and I think that both are Territorial Soldiers:-

1) 179 Wilson, Harry

This is a mistake and should be 1797 who was later renumbered 240269 and Arrived F & F 28.2.15; Served as a Driver; Disemb 16.3.19 (served with 1/6th Battn N & D)

2) 179 Woodruff, Evelyn. This man never recieved a 6-digit number in 1917 so had probably been discharged prior to that date. He enlisted in April 1908 when the Territorial Force was originally formed.

p.s.

James - I have a number 1 :rolleyes:

Jim - the 1/6th N & D made no distinction of rank when they issued the 4-digit numbers in April 1908. They started at 1 and went from there. In fact most of the first 200 numbers were taken by men in E Company

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Thanks everyone for the great answers! You are right my Great grandfather was Evelyn Woodruff and he was discharged 3.5.1916 (which most probably saved his life - pre-somme), though I'm not sure why. Can I find this out even if there isn't a service record? How can I work out what battalion he was in? He was thinking the 1/5th as it was formed in Derby and he was from Buxton. I had asked previously where might he have received his wounds and Loos was suggested...what do you think? Was it normal to discharge people after they were sent home to recover or more likely do it from the field. Anything else you guys can tell me it would be great to hear!

Cheers Charlotte

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Charlotte

A couple of points

1) Looking at the MIC he arrived in France on 28th Feb 1915, which was when many of the 139th Bde deployed. He was discharged in May 1916, but doesn't appear to have a Silver War Badge, so may have been 'time expired' ?

2) If he was from Buxton it is most likely that he served with the 1/6th Battn. The 1/5th were mainly Derby men whilst the 1/6th recruited from the towns and villages of Derbyshire. In fact "C" Company were specifically recruited from Ashbourne and Buxton

3) The only way to find out his Battn is to look at the VM and BWM medal rolls at Kew. From his MIC it looks like the ones you will need are WO329/1405 and WO329/1406.

cheers

Mike

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Thanks Mike!

I just got an email from Andrew Hesketh and with yours and his help, I think we've discovered that his number isn't actually 179, but should be 1799 (a mistake on the MIC). Also that he probably was in 1/6th, which is wonderful as I never thought I'd work it out.

Just a couple of more questions (I know its never ending!) Andrew puts his enrollment around Feb or March 1912, but why then? The war didn't start until 2 years later and his family have no previous military connections. I only ask because of my general ignorance!

Also you mention 'Time expired' and I have been wondering this myself, am I correct in thinking that as a volunteer he could choose his own period of service? Is it just a fluke that several men also have the same discharge date as Evelyn and have sickness or wounds as their reason for discharge?

Ah so many questions!

Finally Mike, are you bringing a book out? Let me know when I'd love to read it.

Thanks again for all your help evryone,

Charlotte

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Charlotte

I'm confused as to why you think that there is a mistake on the MIC :blink:

post-4619-1189946224.jpg

If he is #1799 then that rules him out of being in the 1/6th Battn.

1799 is Thomas Chesterton who was renumbered 240271

the other 1799's are:-

Holmes, Harold (later DLI)

Holland, Richard J

Now, whats interesting is the medal roll that he is on (from the MIC) - F/103 B35. A man with a 4-digit TF number should really be on F/103B 0-3 - so I'm doubly confused :wacko:

I would still say that he enlisted in April 1908 (with the number 179) for 4-years (as normal in the TF) and was then re-engaged in 1912 for another 4 years and then was discharged in 1916 as 'time expired'

He may have enlisted in the TF because he had friends who had joined up??

As regards the date of his discharge, I would be surprised if a group of men where processed and dischrged at the same time even though the reason for discharge might be different.

Please let me know why you think that the MIC is wrong

cheers

Mike

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I 'm leaning towards 179 being his number, I have Evelyn Woodruff on the 1914 star roll with the information in my previous post (I refrained from naming him in case this wasn't wanted at that stage). I can't see the clerks making the same mistake on two seperate documents.

I am still fathoming out the numbering system and know there are many here who are far more adept at reading Notts and Derby list etc. However, if Pte Woodruff was a pre TF man, he could have been numbered in sequence in the 1908 reforms in order of time served in the ranks of the militia. That could explain the Time expired theory. He may have not been a young man anymore and was discharged at the end of his latest engagement accordingly.

James

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I have just come across a William Herbert Mayfield - no 138 as a Private/Acting Cpl. he was then Dis. to Comm and a 2/Lieut. They seem to have found another number 13847 but MIC does have 138.

His family seem to think he had the MM and MC but I cannot find either!

Any ideas of the Battalion :rolleyes:

stevem

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Below are listed the Notts and Derby Regiment medals that I have in my collection. All with service numbers up to 517 are NCOs. From 564 onwards they are rankers. The N & D is not the only regiment to issue service numbers to the serving NCOs first. There is a bit of a myth that these low service numbers always relate to Territorials but sometimes it was the longest servers that were issued with them.

Not sure what you mean by 'myth', please. Are these men TF? and were they ex-VF? Or are they SR? You imply that first there is a unit, with men already categorised as NCO or private, but with no number, and then there is a numbering system that gives precedence to the NCOs? The only possible time for this would be 1908, for both VF to TF and Militia to SR, when the changeover took place.

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Steve

I think that he is 2nd Battn and his number is really 13847. Arrived in France on 9th Dec 1915. Commissioned 27.11.17.

I think that 13407 is a medal roll reference

post-4619-1190044193.jpg

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Steve

I think that he is 2nd Battn and his number is really 13847. Arrived in France on 9th Dec 1915. Commissioned 27.11.17.

I think that 13407 is a medal roll reference

post-4619-1190044193.jpg

I have just brought a 1915 star to L/Corp 132 later Sgt. 200005 William Wilkinson 1st 5th Battalion Notts and Derby kia 1.7.1916. Born 1880, Belper, enlisted Belper, commemorated on Theipval Memorial, he was 36 when he was killed so he was a early Territorial. John

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Hello!

Getting back to Pte. Woodruff, I thought the number was wrong because I got an email saying so (I'm afraid I don't know enough to argue either way)! Andrew Hesketh kindly emailed me the other day and said

'Mike Briggs (who is the expert on the 6th) has got back to me. He doesn't have Evelyn in his listings but suspects that he was 1/6th. The Buxton connection pretty much confirms it. That would place him (most likely) in B or C Company. However, Mike has also noted an error on the MIC. His number was not 179, it was actually 1799. This fact alters some of my comments. He would not have been a 1908 enlsitment and former Volunteer.'

So is that not the case? Also about his age he would have only been 29, he was born in 1887 and died in 1957. Thats not to old is it? Perhaps it is more than likely his time expired....was this common? Can't think it would be popular with the people handing out white feathers?

Ah the saga continues!

Thanks again for all your help...please keep it coming.

Charlotte

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'Mike Briggs (who is the expert on the 6th) has got back to me. He doesn't have Evelyn in his listings but suspects that he was 1/6th. The Buxton connection pretty much confirms it. That would place him (most likely) in B or C Company. However, Mike has also noted an error on the MIC. His number was not 179, it was actually 1799. This fact alters some of my comments. He would not have been a 1908 enlsitment and former Volunteer.'

Ha Ha, that’s solved it. Don't trust anything that Mike Briggs says :blush:

My fault really. In my reply to Andrew I was referring to the mistake with the other '179 man' which is really 1799 and is Harry Wilson (Battn unknown)

Charlotte, Evelyn Woodruff is DEFINATELY 179 and he enlisted in April 1908. The reason I can't say for certain that he was in the 1/6th Battn is because he is recorded in a Medal Role that I have not looked at yet. I plan to go to the NA over the next few weeks and will solve this once and for all :rolleyes:

SO, if he was from Buxton and joined the 1/6th N & D it is most likely that he would have been placed in C Company (Ashbourne and Buxton); B Company covered Chapel-en-le-frith and the Hope Valley.

Assuming above is right, here is C Company in 1912:-

post-4619-1190052108.jpg

Picture courtesy of Anthony Bagshaw ;)

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So is that not the case? Also about his age he would have only been 29, he was born in 1887 and died in 1957. Thats not to old is it? Perhaps it is more than likely his time expired....was this common? Can't think it would be popular with the people handing out white feathers?

Thoughts - but take them with a pinch of salt B)

1) He may have re-enlisted later in the War or was even conscripted, but did not serve overseas because his medal entitlement is with the N & D (and he has no other recorded number).

2) Maybe he was discharged on medical grounds but his Silver War Badge was not recorded on the MIC

3) I think the fact that his medal entitlement is recorded in the 'wrong' role maybe a clue

cheers

Mike

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Ha Ha, that’s solved it. Don't trust anything that Mike Briggs says :blush:

Always have - always will.

The misunderstanding was on my part - apologies to both Charlotte and Mike.

Charlotte, disregard my second e-mail and go with what I said in the first one which, I note, everyone else appears to agree with above in any case!

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Incidentally, he was discharged 3/5/16 along with quite a few others who I've seen in the SWB's with comments such as 'sickness' or 'wounds'. There's no ref to an SWB on this chap's card. Any thoughts as to why?

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Ah cheers guys, there's not a chance I would have ever discovered this much without your help! It's really wonderful to find out all of this, apparently he never really talked about the war so its wonderful to piece it together and let all the family know. We're all really proud of him and the regiment (I've been reading the war diaries), the other half of the family were Irish and lets just say they were involved in other activities in 1916! I'm hoping somone in the family might have some pictures of him...so if I have any luck I'll post them on here. I love the picture posted of C company...I've just got to work out which one he is!

I'm thinking we might never know for sure why he was discharge in 1916.....whats the best way to see if his service record still exists (I think his might be the only option to a definite answer to the puzzle!)?

Thanks again I'm forever indebted!

Anything else you might find out, I'd love to know.

Charlie

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Regarding the SWB...I guess we can't put it down to a clerical error? His medals are no longer in the family so I can't tell you whether he received one or not.

Mike - What do you mean by 'that his medal entitlement is recorded in the 'wrong' role'?

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There's no ref to an SWB on this chap's card. Any thoughts as to why?

As the SWB wasn't awarded automatically and had to be appled for I wonder if, in this case, the soldier in question simply didn't apply for it?

Steve

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