Blue Circle cement

[George Armstrong Custer]

Yes, thanks to all for your responses to my question. What can we conclude? Well, as Roop has convincingly shown - thanks for the excellent research! - there is no way that 'Blue Circle' cement bags were seen by British troops in German entrenchments in the '14-'18 war. However, it seems from several anecdotal accounts that there may possibly be a germ of truth in the idea that cement bags were seen by British troops in German positions bearing other markings which gave rise to the suspicion amongst the troops - whether justifiably or not - that British exports had found their way into the German war effort. If there is truth in this, however, it certainly doesn't prove they got there through any clandestine route by which British manufacturers were profiteering whilst our troops wre being machine-gunned. They may simply have been legitimately exported to a neutral country and from there been sold on to third parties entirely outwith the control of the original British manufacturer/exporter. Finally, though, there remains a niggling idea in my mind that it was a documentary about D-Day in 1944 that I heard it stated that Blue Circle cement bags had been spotted by British troops in captured German positions on the Atlantic Wall. In the absence of confirmation of this, however, all that can be said is that it would have been at least possible for Blue Circle bags to have been seen at that period - unlike the case of '14-'18. How they would have found their way there I don't know - unless there was exports from Britain going on to Lisbon or Franco's Spain, and from there through Vichy France to the Germans? In any event, it's one of those stories where it's easy to see that someone actually seeing something and putting two and two together and getting five could soon spread amongst a whole army, gaining the patina of gospel truth the more it was repeated!

ciao,

GAC

[Gibbo]

According to the brief history of the company on the website of its new owner, Lafarge, which I tried unsuccessfully to link to in my earlier post, Blue Circle set up a Spanish operation in the first half of the 20th century. If this was before WWII, then perhaps the Spanish subsidiary exported to Germany during WWII without the involvement of the UK management.

From lafargecement.co.uk

Company History

Lafarge Cement UK has a history stretching back to 1900 when 27 small, mainly Kent based, cement manufacturers and their subsidiaries merged to form the Associated Portland Cement Manufacturers (1900) Ltd. These companies had produced cement using bottle, beehive and chamber kilns over the previous 40-50 years. With the introduction of the more efficient rotary kiln, however, production methods became far more efficient, making consolidation and mergers inevitable.

In 1919, the company dropped the "1900" from its name, having begun a process of establishing interests initially in Mexico, Canada and South Africa. The famous Blue Circle brand was first introduced in 1928. Throughout the first half of the 20th century, further operations were established in New Zealand, Australia, Nigeria, Chile, Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), Kenya, Tanzania and Brazil.

As the company entered the second half of the 20th century, it became one of the first to make up the FT30 Index, being listed on the London Stock Exchange on November 3rd 1953.

The famous brand name was adopted as company name - Blue Circle Industries PLC - in the late 1970s. The 80's and 90's saw development of further worldwide interests, most notably in the United States.

In 2001 Blue Circle Industries was taken over by the Lafarge group to become part of the world's leading producer of cement and building materials. Indeed, Lafarge holds market leading positions worldwide in each of its four business divisions, Cement; Aggregates and Concrete; Roofing; and Gypsum.

The UK cement-making operation changed its company name to Lafarge Cement in early 2002, but retains the famous Blue Circle brand of cement which it makes and markets nationwide.

[PBI]

I can confirm the programme you mention , it was a Scottish veteran & he mentioned Blue Circle most definately . I can see him now & hear his caustic remarks.

Colin

I have the DVD of this Chap Talking,and He saw the Blue Circle Cement Bags at Rotterdam Harbour,when He was being repatriated back to Blighty.

[centurion]

I have the DVD of this Chap Talking,and He saw the Blue Circle Cement Bags at Rotterdam Harbour,when He was being repatriated back to Blighty.

Is this WW1 or WW2?

[PBI]

WW1 for sure,just going through My DVD Archive to Dig out the Title.The Film Title is "Lions Led By Donkeys" and it was produced by Yorkshire Television in the very early 1980s.The Veteran Whose Name is David Watson,served in the 9th Royal Scots,and was wounded at the Capture of Y Ravine at Beaumont Hamel,he mention the Floors of the Tunnels in Y Ravine Being Carpeted with Blue Circle Cement Bags.I must correct my previous post,Watson was part of the Army of Occupation,and it was whilst being sent Home for Demob it was when He saw the Infamous Blue Circle Cement Bags Again.If anyone would like a Copy of this Title please PM for Details...Regards Russ.

[centurion]

In which case even if Blue Circle existed then (which it seems it didn't) what was the problem with bags of cement in neutral Holland? The Dutch did have a construction industry and, given the geology of the country, doubtless has to import cement. Had he been a POW to be pasing through Rotterdam? Sound like a case of old memories becoming blurred - it does happen.

[PBI]

With all due respect,i would have thought being involved in the Fighting,and being wounded at Beaumont hamel would have been seared into this Mans Memory,and as He says on the DVD "The Blue Circle Cement Bags,gave Me a lot of Trouble for some time to come".

[centurion]

PBI

Seared or not this doesn't answer the question as to how he saw bags from a company that was not yet in existance and in Holland at that.

It doesn't make sense - if he was being repatriated through Rotterdam this would mean that either he mis remembered the port or he was being repatriated from a POW camp as sufficiently wounded as to be able to take no further part in the war. If this was the case "The Blue Circle Cement Bags,gave Me a lot of Trouble for some time to come" simply makes no real sense!

[PBI]

Well all i can say is that in the Programme He Sounds Totally CONVINCED that he saw Blue Circle Cement Bags at Y Ravine and also at Rotterdam when he was sent Home from Cologne for Demob,why would He have emphasised these Facts?..let alone have chosen to remember them Years later,they obviously made a very Deep impression on His Mind.Could another Cement Company have used the Blue Circle Emblem ? or are Blue Circle as was in Denial about Selling Cement to Germany ?,and maybe have altered their Company History accordingly ?.It make perfect sense for Germany to recieve Her Materiel via a Neutral Country such as Holland,as She was Blockaded by the Royal Navy.Watson was making His comment about Rotterdam after the War was over and he was being sent Home,i think He was puzzling over How much Cement had got through to Germany via Holland during the War.Oh well another mystery of The Great War.

[centurion]

PBI the story is begining to make even less sense

If he was repatriated for demob from Cologne (probably in 1919 by the sound of it) then "The Blue Circle Cement Bags gave Me a lot of Trouble for some time to come", makes absolutely no sense whatsover. In anycase he almost certainly would not be shipped via Rotterdamn.

I've no doubt he was convinced that he remembered right but unfortunately that doesn't prove anything. I did once some research into the Tonypandy riots of 1911. One miner I interviewed was absolutely convinced of what he said he'd seen as a child (and even threatened violence when I queried some parts of his account). Further research revealed that he'd been born four months after the event and had been told about it years later. Recent research suggests that stories can become absorbed as memory (the test group were each told about an event involving seeing Bugs Bunny at Disneyland - impossible because 'he' was never a Disney character. When tested some time later each was convinced that they, personally, had seen Bugs Bunny at Disneyland). All the evidence so far provided shows that the story was a post war myth. The idea of Blue Circle fiddling its corporate history makes no sense if this company didn't exist until years after the war.

[PBI]

http://www.ww1cemeteries.com/ww1cemeteries...rosslisting.htm

The Section under ports contains a snippet about Germany using Dutch Ports for Re Supply.

[PBI]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hwwCwn2...uFsnJEkoGRAnriY

Page 146

[auchonvillerssomme]

interesting?

more

It wouldn't take a big step for a man seeing this or hearing about it would link it to a company that later in his lifetime became generically known as Blue Circle.

Mick

[Moonraker]

As often is the case, a search of The Times on-line archive throws up some background data. I entered "Portland cement", which led me to several hits (Questions in the House, and Letters to the Editor) for the last quarter of 1917, including:

I also searched for "Blue Circle" and got no hits for the Great War period.

Moonraker

[auchonvillerssomme]

Sorry meant to say my reference was Pill Boxes on the Western Front. Peter Oldham.

Mick

[centurion]

Moonraker

I don't know if you've spotted it but there appears to be a logical flaw in the argument in the 2nd letter in the Times (as there often is in indignant letters to the editor). If Germany had ample supplies of cement then she wouldn't need to bring in British cement through Holland.

I note that there is no mention of Blue Circle in any of this. Portland was (and still is) a generic term for a particular quality of cement. I've seen a cement factory in Rabigh (Saudi) that produes vast quantities of 'Portland' cement. Like a pearl many myths acrete round some small speck and I suspect the Blue Circle is one of these.

[Regulus 1]

auchonvillerssomme,

You just stated and quoted the correct brand of cement which has been seen by eyewitnesses in the German trenches. APC it is ! And just that.

However there could be another explanation for APC : Antwerp Portland Cement which was also used by the Germans, next to Obourg, German cement which was delivered from Germany to Belgium over the Dutch rivers... 'used to reconstruct roads and houses behind the front'.

[Jon6640]

I have been Googling re Blue Circle, certainly it was not adopted as a company name before 1928, but some references suggest that it was used as Brand name on cement bags as early as 1912, in Mexico of all places.

Never one to trust the web, could Kondoa please confirm that it was not a brand name as well as a Company name before 1928, from what I've read it suggests it was adopted as a company name due the success of the Brand. I would love clarification.

Regards,

Mart

Lafarge Cement UK has a history stretching back to 1900 when 27 small, mainly Kent based, cement manufacturers and their subsidiaries merged to form the Associated Portland Cement Manufacturers (1900) Ltd. These companies had produced cement using bottle, beehive and chamber kilns over the previous 40-50 years. With the introduction of the more efficient rotary kiln, however, production methods became far more efficient, making consolidation and mergers inevitable.

In 1919, the company dropped the "1900" from its name, having begun a process of establishing interests initially in Mexico, Canada and South Africa. The famous Blue Circle brand was first introduced in 1928. Throughout the first half of the 20th century, further operations were established in New Zealand, Australia, Nigeria, Chile, Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), Kenya, Tanzania and Brazil.

As the company entered the second half of the 20th century, it became one of the first to make up the FT30 Index, being listed on the London Stock Exchange on November 3rd 1953.

The famous brand name was adopted as company name - Blue Circle Industries PLC - in the late 1970s. The 80's and 90's saw development of further worldwide interests, most notably in the United States.

In 2001 Blue Circle Industries was taken over by the Lafarge group to become part of the world's leading producer of cement and building materials. Indeed, Lafarge holds market leading positions worldwide in each of its four business divisions, Cement; Aggregates and Concrete; Roofing; and Gypsum.

The UK cement-making operation changed its company name to Lafarge Cement in early 2002, but retains the famous Blue Circle brand of cement which it makes and markets nationwide.

[MartH]

Hi

Just had a thought about this, APC licensed the rotary kiln worldwide which is bloody big, I once worked for OY Lohja AB in the labs as student, analysising samples. Maybe part of the licensing agreement had some standardised mark which was common to the German bags and British Bags.

Regards

Mart

[KONDOA]

APC was not the name of APCM and was not used on the bags. As previously noted each associate member of APCM used their own logo up to 1928. There were many of these companies and to identify any one as part of APCM whilst passing a dock would at least require a knowledge of the many companies involved.

Roop

[George Armstrong Custer]

I think the above letter posted by Moonraker is absolutely fascinating on more than one level. Leaving aside for one moment the veracity of what it asserts about the rise in British cement export figures coinciding with German defensive construction on the Western Front this letter, written by a serving officer in 1917, proves conclusively that the idea that British cement was finding its way to German fortification works was very much a contemporary wartime one, and not a post-war construct of failing veterans' memories. More than that, it was clearly a wartime suspicion that was being hotly debated in public.

But the detail of the assertions made by Captain Church is also of great interest - particularly so if it can be shown that his statistics are correct. In other words, if British cement exports really did rise exponentially at certain periods in the years 1914 and 1917 - periods coinciding respectively with the construction of the German's first defensive positions on the Flanders front in 1914 and then the building of new pillboxes behind the front at Messines in 1917 - what alternative explanations for these surges in exports is there other than that they were caused by German military requirements?

Captain Church also makes two other interesting points, I think. The first is his emphasis on the nature of the country on the Flanders front - "as the nature of that country makes the construction of concrete shelters almost imperative." His second point is a refutal of the proposition that the words 'Portland Cement' on bags 'prove nothing.' Apparently this assertion had been made in an earlier letter to the 'Times' from a Mr. Kidner. We've also seen that argument made on some of the earlier posts on this thread - that the generic term 'Portland Cement' proves nothing as to the cement's origins. Yet, as Captan Church points out, "nothing is simpler than to change the labels." Presumably Church is suggesting that labels may have been deliberately changed to plain generic 'Portland Cement,' leaving no indication of the content's place of manufacture.

Finally, reading between the lines, it would seem that Mr. Kidner's letter to the 'Times' had been arguing for the lifting of an embargo upon the export of British cement. Given that Captain Church quotes the rise in British cement exports in the first half of 1917, and that Moonraker tells us that Church's letter was published 'in the last quarter of 1917', it would seem that the British government had slapped some kind of embargo on cement exports to neutral countries in the late summer or early autumn of that year. It would be interesting to know on what evidential basis that embargo was imposed at that late stage of the war - was, for instance, the coincidental rise of German pillbox construction and British cement exports in the first half of 1917 put before a government committee in evidence? If so, was it a cause celebre, or was the evidence of any misuse of British cement exports and the resulting embargo kept quiet for reasons of maintaining national unity and morale? If so, then clearly the cat was let out of the bag by Kidner and Church's letters to the 'Times'! And it would be interesting to know in what capacity the referenced Mr. Kidner wrote to the 'Times' supporting a lifting of this embargo - was he a cement baron?

As I say, Captain Church's letter, and the things it alludes to, raises some very interesting questions about controlling the misuse of British exports during the Great War that I've not seen addressed anywhere else. Thanks for posting it Moonraker!

ciao,

GAC

[centurion]

If exports increased this would not be surprising as large amounts of cement would very probably be shipped to France for the war effort. It would also be interesting to know if Germany had a cement export business pre war as, during the blockade, this could well have been displaced by British sales to Germany's old customers. In effect there could be many quite legitimate explanations for an increase in cement exports if indeed there was one.

There were a great many rumours and suppositions in WW1 that became quite widespread with not a lot of supporting evidence.

As I said earlier myths often grow around some small fact and accrete more and more 'detail' to reinforce them. The blue circle bags seem to be part of ths accretion process.

[George Armstrong Custer]

In effect there could be many quite legitimate explanations for an increase in cement exports if indeed there was one.

There were a great many rumours and suppositions in WW1 that became quite widespread with not a lot of supporting evidence.

As I said earlier myths often grow around some small fact and accrete more and more 'detail' to reinforce them. The blue circle bags seem to be part of ths accretion process.

Indeed. However this doesn't explain why the British government thought fit to place an embargo on these exports in 1917. As to the 'Blue Circle' references, I'd agree that these can now be well and truly dismissed as a red herring. But, as Church's letter proves there is also no doubt that serious misgivings about where British cement exports were ending up were being expressed in public debate in 1917, and that the government saw fit to place an embargo on these exports - these facts owe nothing to post-war mythologising.

ciao,

GAC

[KONDOA]

Was there an embargo? I suspect that if one existed it was to ensure adequate supply for our own need given the increasing requirements of our own army. Nothing better than cement for road stabilisation etc.

Roop

[KONDOA]

Ah Ah!

This may shed more light on the subject if anyone has access.

http://www.bopcris.ac.uk/bopall/ref7967.html

Roop