Blue Circle cement

[George Armstrong Custer]

I seem to remember reading (or perhaps hearing in a documentary) an account by a D-Day veteran some years ago, in which he described seeing cement bags marked with the Blue Circle logo lying amongst some of the half constructed concrete defences of the German's Atlantic Wall. Looking for a reference to such a thing on google, I couldn't find one - but I did find one comment on a Daily Telegraph blog to the effect that the writer's grandfather had found Blue Circle sacks in a German trench in 1918, which had apparently been exported to the Germans via neutral Holland. Anyone know if this story has its roots in the First or Second World War? Is it a kind of urban myth which has been applied first to one then the other, with little truth in either?

ciao,

GAC

[punjab612]

I was told last year on a trip to the Salient by a local Belgian guide that the German bunkers were made from Portland cement imported via Holland.

Ironically the Portland/Blue Circle cement companies are now under German ownership.

Peter

[Guest tafski]

have also heard that when y ravine at newfoundland park was taken the entrances to the bunkers had portland cement bags as foot wipers outside the entrances and that the cement was bought via holland

tafski

[ralphjd]

One of the first stories I ever read about the First World War, never bought b c cement because of this, one of my foibles I suppose.

[ARABIS]

Hello All,

I have a copy of a prisoner of war statement from the National Archives by Leading Stoker Alfred Rowe [H.M.S.Arabis] who was captured in February 1916. He was "employed" breaking stones & filling waggons at the Wunstorf Portland Cement Works at Hameln.

Regards,

ARABIS.

[KONDOA]

The name Blue Crcle was not adopted until 1928. It was recently bought by a French / Canadian outfit called Lafarge.

Roop

[J T Gray]

The name Blue Crcle was not adopted until 1928. It was recently bought by a French / Canadian outfit called Lafarge.

Roop

And, of course, we have to bear in mind tat the company may not have known - they may have thought how lucky they were to have a really good customer in a bit of Europe that wasn't at war, and weren't being told that their product was being flogged on - no doubt at a healthy profit.

Adrian

[Malcolm]

A good book on this subject is Marc Ferro's ' The Great War ' ISBN 0-88029-449-3.

Ferro was a French Historian.

He gives many examples of what went on eg. Copper models of the Eifel Tower made in Sweden and exported to Germany. Because they were ' Object d'Art ' they were not regarded as contrabrand when the ship carrying them was stopped by the British blocade warships. When they arrived in Germany they were smelted down for shell driving bands. A murky world of ' business as usual ' financed by the big banks.

Aye

Malcolm

[carninyj]

GAC

The story you refer to was in a TV film, 'Gone for a Soldier: Somme' (I think). The storyteller was a Scottish veteran and he recounted how they fought their way into a German Hindenburg Line and found the concrete bunker carpeted in Blue Circle cement bags. He said he was then hit in the ankle by a lump of shrapnel/shell fragment out of which the steam had been taken by it first striking a tree. Anyhow, he was taken out of the battle and was later shipped down the Rhine to Holland. It was there that he saw huge piles of Blue Circle cement, sold by the British to the neutral Dutch. They were selling it to the Germans.

Someone is sure to remember the video better than me and will confirm or rubbish my recollection.

Regards

Carninyj

[Simon Jones]

I can remember hearing the story about 25 years ago so it was probably in that documentary. Forum member mebu, who knows a bit (EDIT: or rather a lot) about pillboxes, has also dismissed the story here.

[KONDOA]

I repeat- Blue Circle did not exist until 1928.

[truthergw]

If cement was not on the list of strategic material, there is no reason why it should not have been exported to a neutral country. Even if it was, cement making is a fairly low tech industry requiring only a plentiful supply of limestone as a raw material. The Artois plain is made of chalk. It's hard to believe that precious cargo space would be taken up by cement in preference to other strategic materials which were in short supply.Oil, metals, rubber etc.

[KONDOA]

There is no limestone in Holland though so it would be seen as a safe export market and close to the Kent producing area.

Roop

[truthergw]

Quite right Roop. A longstanding trade which, until 1915, would not be seen as important from a strategic materials point of view. My point was that it is not an exotic material. Every ship which docked full of cement was a ship which was not unloading vital supplies which were in short supply. Why give money ( eventually) to a British company when the occupied parts of Northern France must have had supplies in abundance. Germany held large parts of the coalfields. Cement is a sine qua non of mining. Limestone will commonly occur beside coal measures. Perhaps it was a cunning plan of the Admiralty to line the wharves with cement ships and leave no room for the stuff Germany was short of.

[KONDOA]

A cunning plan indeed.

I am surprising that the trade was not evident given the ease that a Dutch barge could power straight up the Rhine to it's eventual customer. Perhaps we supplied dodgy cement on purpose to weaken the Hun defences.

Roop

[Staffsyeoman]

A good book on this subject is Marc Ferro's ' The Great War ' ISBN 0-88029-449-3.

Ferro was a French Historian.

Indeed he was, and quite a Marxist one at that (as a lecturer of mine once said, so Marxist as to make Karl blush)- so he is likely to find perfidy in the machinations of business wherever he goes looking.

I would therefore say "Caution Advised" !

[MartH]

I have been Googling re Blue Circle, certainly it was not adopted as a company name before 1928, but some references suggest that it was used as Brand name on cement bags as early as 1912, in Mexico of all places.

Never one to trust the web, could Kondoa please confirm that it was not a brand name as well as a Company name before 1928, from what I've read it suggests it was adopted as a company name due the success of the Brand. I would love clarification.

Regards,

Mart

[KONDOA]

Couldnt say if the logo predates the company name. Sounds plausible.

Roop

[centurion]

Dredging old memory from a time that the firm I worked for had Blue Circle as a client 'Blue Circle' originated not as a company brand but a form of generic quality mark for portland cement. Portland cement could come from anywhere in the world (just like cheddar cheese!) In any case as the Company of that Name did not exist before 1928 the whole story has a strong whiff of total ballony. as a Blue Circle logo would not be asscoiated with a British company (or possibly not even recognised). Germany would not need to have imported cement as it had both the raw materials and manufacturing capacity in house.

The Germans did but a lot of effort into all sorts of ways of importing strategic materials (such as special metals for making vital types of steel) but I've seen no verifyable (or indeed any) references to cement.

[Malcolm]

Indeed he was, and quite a Marxist one at that (as a lecturer of mine once said, so Marxist as to make Karl blush)- so he is likely to find perfidy in the machinations of business wherever he goes looking.

I would therefore say "Caution Advised" !

Well you're hardly likely to get the truth from a Director of Barclay's Bank or Credit Suisse are you!!.

Aye

Malcolm

[Gibbo]

The company's website says that it was formed as the Associated Portland Cement Company in 1900. It adopted the Blue Circle brand name in 1928 & didn't change the company name to Blue Circle until the late 70s. I've got The Times for 2 May 1961, the day that I was born, & the quoted company was then still Associated Portland Cement.

Blue Circle history

PS: Portland cement isn't necessarily from the UK. It was invented in Britain & given its name because it resembled Portland Stone, a type of stone found on the Isle of Portland in Dorset. However, Portland cement doesn't come from Portland & can be made anywhere that the raw materials can be found. Bags labelled Portland Cement could have come from the USA or it could be that bags were labelled Portland Zemente & British observers, seeing the word Portland, didn't take in the German spelling of cement.

Portland Cement from Wikipedia

[centurion]

And as I said earlier Germany had ample cement making capacity. Moeover if the blue circle was originally a symbol denoting quality and not a brand then its quite possible that sacks of German made cement had a blue circle on them. However the story of British made cement bags being founf in the German lines must have been made up well after WW1 when a blue circle became a British trade mark or brand - it simply wouldn't have made sense before then

[KONDOA]

Just to close on this subject. I contacted Blue Circle/Lafarge who sent me a very comprehensive history of the brand.

So , after WW1, Brigadier General Critchley CMG having first worked in Mexico joined Amalgamated Portland Cement Manufactuers involving himself in marketing and publicity. Thus whereas each APCM company sold its product under its own brand label it was Critchley that brought them all together under the NEW brand of Blue Circle in 1928.

The possibility of Blue Circle bags being seen in the trenches is therefore impossible.

Roop

[bantamforgot]

I can confirm the programme you mention , it was a Scottish veteran & he mentioned Blue Circle most definately . I can see him now & hear his caustic remarks.

Colin

[MartH]

Thanks Kondoa for putting another myth to bed, just shows you how personal recollections can be mistaken.

Regards

Mart