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Remembered Today:

19th Middlesex Regt


Guest Dejoanz

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I am completely new to this forum so please be patient.

I have discovered some photos of my late father, one of which is an army group.

I have attached a part of the photo with the details of the unit? on it.

I would like to find any information about this group, as my father, like many others would never speak about his life in WW1

Many thanks

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Hello, welcome to the forum.

There are details of the formation and attachments of the 19th Middlesex here. The daily diary of the Battalion is held at the Public Record Office in Kew.

And the history of the 41st Division, to which it belonged, is here. Unfortunately there is no written history of this Division.

I'm not sure how much there is about the Battalion in Everard Wyrall's "Die-Hards in the Great War" (the Die-hards being the Middlesex nickname). There's a description of what the book contains here. (This link will not take you to the book, so you'll need to search a bit in the catalogue, but it is there).

This will give you a start, but I am sure others will add useful comments.

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I'm not sure how much there is about the Battalion in Everard Wyrall's "Die-Hards in the Great War" (the Die-hards being the Middlesex nickname).

Dejoanz

In the orginal copy of this book, there are a total of 27 references (both volumes) to pages that have information on the 19th, some are simply mentions, others point to more solid entries like the one for Messines in 1917.

I will be happy to look up anything in particular for you.

Howard

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Many thanks for help and links.

I have read through them and have come to the conclusion that I am a complete ignoramus.

I have read through 'army terminology and jargon', but still can't work out what/where/how does B Coy 19th Middx Regt fit into the picture with battalions etc

Apologies for my ignorance but I really would like to discover something about my father's experiences. Particularly where he went an what he did.

I also cannot find any place in Germany called Linde. Any thoughts on what type of establishment this could have been. I have no idea of the year it was taken

Whole photo is attached

post-2-1073767159.jpg

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Dejoanz

In the orginal copy of this book, there are a total of 27 references (both volumes) to pages that have information on the 19th, some are simply mentions, others point to more solid entries like the one for Messines in 1917.

I will be happy to look up anything in particular for you.

Howard

Howard,

Would you mind extending this service to other forum members? I'm trying to trace details surrounding the wounding of the following relative (he DoW at home). All that I can determine so far is that he was wounded during the March retreat - is there any particualr action mentioned in which the 20th took part that would be the most likely for him to have been wounded in. Obviously it would be hard to pinpoint the exact action, but based upon little snippets from other soruces the 20th did fight one particularly heavy action during this period.His CWGC details are below:

Name: VENABLES, WILLIAM

Initials: W F

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment: Middlesex Regiment

Unit Text: 20th Bn.

Age: 37

Date of Death: 03/05/1918

Service No: TF/201329

Very best regards,

Alex.

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All that I can determine so far is that he was wounded during the March retreat - is there any particualr action mentioned in which the 20th took part that would be the most likely for him to have been wounded in.

Yorts

It seems they were busy in March! The following was scanned from the book, "1" comes out as "i", "2" as "z" etc. so if I have missed a few, sorry!

The bit after this in April is already on my site at http://freespace.virgin.net/howard.anderson/. Follow "Other Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment"

I hope that helps.

Howard

Eve of the German Offensive

(other battalion details removed?.)

20th Middlesex

The early days of March were uneventful, save for the usual training, marching, the supply of working parties and the manifold duties when out of the front-line trenches. On the 20th of the month the 20th Middlesex were in the Blairville area and the 21st in the Mercatel area.

In the Diary of the 20th Middlesex, however, on the 21st March, there is the following entry: "5 a.m. Intense firing 5 a.m. Stood to till 6.30 a.m. and continued in state of instant readiness" -the Great German Offensive of 1918, the last effort of the enemy to defeat the Allies, had begun.

The first Battles of the Somme 1918. The battle of of St. Quentin, 21st-23rd March 1918

Meanwhile in the Third Army area, north of the Somme, the 20th and 21st Middlesex of the 40th Division and the 19th and 23rd Battalions of the 41st Division had also been engaged.

On the 21st March when the great offensive began the 20th Middlesex were at Blairville and the 21st at Boisleux-au-Mont.

Intense firing was heard at 5 a.m., and the 20th Battalion "stood to" until 6.30 a.m. At 12.30 p.m. orders came to hand to move to Hamelincourt, but on the march the destination of the Battalion was changed to the assembly point "C" (St. Leger). Scouts were sent on ahead to reconnoitre the ground and push through St. Leger while the Battalion moved across open ground in artillery formation until it reached the assembly area. Shortly afterwards the scouts returned and reported that they had reached Croisilles which (at 8 p.m.) was being heavily shelled. At about 9.15 p.m.* the Battalion received orders to move to a fresh assembly area-" B" (north of Mory Abbaye) which position was occupied by 11 p.m. *(The Diary of the 121st Brigade state that these orders were sent to the 20th Middlesex at 1 am, on 22nd March, actually after the Battalion had reached Mory Abbaye.)

In the meantime the 21st Middlesex had left Boisleux between 5 and 6 p.m. under orders to move to assembly point " F," north of Boiry Becquerelle, to seize Henin Hill, and deny it to the enemy. The move was accomplished without opposition and the Battalion took up a position in depth on a frontage of about 1,400 yards: patrols were then pushed out in an endeavour to gain touch with the enemy. At 3 a.m., however, on the 22nd, the 21st were ordered to march to the Sensée Valley, north-east of Ervillers, where they were to be in reserve to the 121st Brigade then holding the third system (near St. Leger), which ran across the Valley. The 13th East Surreys were on the right and some R.E. troops on the Arras-Bapaume road on the left.

The 20th Battalion on reaching the Mory Abbaye area had set to work to dig themselves in, and by 5 a.m. on the 22nd, "C" Company was in the Army Line north-east of Abbaye, "B "Company in strong points north-east and south of Abbaye, "D" Company south of Abbaye, "A" Company in reserve south-west of Abbaye and Battalion Headquarters in a cellar in Abbaye with a strong point north-west of the cemetery. "C" Company had a few casualties from shell fire.

Shortly after 1 p.m. on the 22nd the 20th Middlesex received orders to reinforce the right flank of the Corps Line, as an enemy break-through in the direction of Vaulx Vraucourt was reported. Companies were hurried off and occupied a line of trenches 1,500 yards due north of Beugnatre (at H.5 central). The Battalion dug itself in more securely for shell fire was heavy.

Against Croisilles the enemy had launched masses of troops, for the attack of the Seventeenth German Army on the northern flank of the Flesquiêres Salient was designed for the purpose of breaking through and capturing, or forcing the evacuation of the Salient.

Of the general situation and fighting during the remainder of the day it is not possible to write with certainty, the 121st Brigade Diary admitting that from 6 p.m. the situation "remained extremely obscure."

From the Battalion Diaries of the 20th and 21st Middlesex it is possible to adduce the following story:

After moving to trenches due north of Beugnatre, the 20th Middlesex reported at 7 p.m. that the Yorkshire and Suffolk Regiments on their flanks had been driven in. "C" and "D" Companies were therefore moved across to Mory in support, the former Company into trenches south-west of Abbaye with orders to gain touch with the Suffolks and place themselves under the C.O. of that Battalion, "D" Company to the sunken road running south from Mory Copse under the command of the O.C., Yorkshire Regiment. Meanwhile "B" Company moved to the sunken road at "B.28 central" (running south-east from Mory) and "A" Company to old trenches in "H.4.a" (south of "B" Company). Between 9 and 10 p.m. the situation in Mory was reported as critical, scouts reporting that the enemy was on the outskirts of the village, though Abbaye was clear. "C "Company was then moved up to join "D" Company in the road south of Mory Copse. Such is the story of the 20th Middlesex to the close of the 22nd March.

Turning to the 21st Battalion: at 2 p.m. "D" Company had been ordered up to reinforce the Welch Regiment in Croisilles Switch, in the neighbourhood of Judas Farm. At 6 p.m. this Company reported that troops in front of them had been driven back, and shortly afterwards the Middlesex were engaged with the enemy's advanced troops; the latter were reported to have occupied St. Leger. The story of the 21st Battalion on the 22nd March ends here.

The Battalion Diaries of the 20th and 21st Middlesex both record counter-attacks on the enemy on the morning of the 23rd.

The 20th Battalion records that "C" and " D" Companies, under the O.C., Suffolks, attacked on the left of the 122nd Brigade (wherever that was). The right of the attack made no progress, and the two companies were cut off and surrounded, having to fight their way through the enemy to their original position in the sunken road south of Mory Copse: in this they were badly cut up. The situation in Mory was now acute. "A" and "B" Companies of the Battalion were ordered to dig a defensive flank south of Mory from" B.27 central to B.28 central," which interpreted means an east and west line directly south of, and approximately seven hundred yards from, the southern exits of Mory. It is now clearly evident that the enemy was between the two halves of the Battalion. The enemy's shell fire continued to swamp the whole area occupied by the Middlesex, while his snipers in the village were a source of great annoyance. Noon came and saw little change in the situation. Later in the afternoon the 20th Middlesex reported that a German field gun, firing from east of Mory Copse, was enfilading Battalion Headquarters (south of the village) and that the enemy was observed massing in the sunken road south of the Copse. Where then were "C" and "D" Companies of the 20th Middlesex? Night came on and the two Companies ("A" and "B"), south of Mory, still held their positions with some of the Hants and 14 H.L.I. on their right.

The first battle of Bapaume and actions at the Somme crossing, 24th-25th March 1918

Reverting to the movements of the 20th Middlesex on the 24th March: soon after midnight 23rd/24th a Staff Captain from Brigade Headquarters arrived with orders to work in con-Junction with the 14th H.L.L and retake Mory: an order easy enough to give but impossible to carry out owing to the general situation. The C.O. then went off to confer with the O.C., H.L.I., but apparently the 20th Middlesex hung on all day to their positions south of Mory until, at about 5p.m., the enemy launched a heavy attack against the 120th Brigade and the Corps on the right. The brigade on the right of the Middlesex was driven in and the 120th Brigade withdrew. The C.O. of the 20th Battalion then reported to 121st Brigade Headquarters that the situation was critical. The 120th Brigade, however, again advanced and reoccupied the trenches in the Army Line: the situation was then somewhat restored.

At 8.30 p.m. the 20th Middlesex received orders to gain touch with the East Surreys on the Western outskirts of Mory and dig in on a line west of the Mory-Favreuil road with the 120th Brigade on their right. This was done. The Battalion was then told it would be relieved by troops of the 127th Brigade, and Battalion Headquarters were ordered to Behagnies. But no relief arrived and as companies were digging in they were shelled by their own guns and forced (with battalions of the 120th Brigade) to with-draw to a sunken road north-east of Behagnies. Both flanks of the Middlesex were now in the air and the enemy, having developed a heavy attack on Ervillers, the Battalion was ordered back to a line east of the Arras-Bapaume road.* Arrived in this position they found their allotted trenches full of troops of the 42nd Division, and as it was now ascertained that the relief ordered would not take place, the Middlesex were placed in support just north-west of Behagnies.

Dawn broke on the 25th with every sign of further heavy fighting. In front of Ervillers the enemy's troops in large numbers were observed in every direction occupying the ridges east of the village. *(The Arras-Bapaume line ran from the latter town in a north-westerly direction through Sapignies, Behagnie~ and Ervillers.)

At 6 a.m. the 20th Middlesex moved to the spur just west of Behagnies. At about 2 p.m. that village was reported captured by the enemy and troops of the 42nd Division retired on Gomiecourt. But they were rallied and the trenches west of the former village were re-occupied and held all day despite the critical nature of the situation.

The 21st Middlesex hung on to their trenches until about 3 p.m. Reports then reached the C.O. of the loss of Behagnies and the advance of the enemy on Ervillers. In order, therefore, to prevent a turning movement from Gomiecourt (should the enemy occupy that place) the Battalion was ordered to take up a position west of Ervillers. Under heavy artillery fire and fighting practically all the way the 21st Battalion fell back to trenches south of Hamelincourt where they were in touch on the right with the East Surreys, East Yorks, Lincs, and troops of the 42nd Division. During the night further orders were received to retire to Bucquoy via Courcelles: this order the 21St Middlesex carried out without incident.

The 20th Middlesex also had moved during the night further westwards. Shortly after midnight the C.O. had been informed by the Battalion in front that the latter was withdrawing at 2 a.m. The O.C., Middlesex, then decided to begin his withdrawal at 1.30 a.m., but at 1.20 a.m. the enemy attacked "A" Company and drove them in: "B" Company was attacked almost simultaneously. Both companies re-formed at Battalion Headquarters, which were then near Bee Wood. Lewis-gun and rifle fire were then opened on the enemy who had begun to advance on Gomiecourt. Under cover of this fire the worn-out Middlesex withdrew in good order (flank and rearguards being maintained) in the direction of Logeast Wood. They formed tip finally outside Ablainzeville and thence marched to Douchy 5 a.m. (26th) and went into billet.

The Battalion Diary of the 20th Middlesex makes no statement as to casualties suffered. The 21st Middlesex give their losses as 2 officers and 21 other ranks killed, 6 officers and 189 other ranks wounded, 6 other ranks wounded and missing, and 2 officer and 8o other ranks missing.

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Many thanks for help and links.

I have read through them and have come to the conclusion that I am a complete ignoramus.

Dejoanz

So are we all! This Great War thing is so big that I never even look at some areas. I admit to being boggled by the sheer weight of knowledge about the war, much often shown on this forum. As a solution, I have chosen to look at one or two areas only, those that I find most interesting. I do not have sufficient lives to follow them all.

Regarding Companies, Battalions etc. have a look at http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/ and then at the Reference Section. In there you will find articles like "How big is a Battalion" etc.

Good luck

Howard

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I have read through 'army terminology and jargon', but still can't work out what/where/how does B Coy 19th Middx Regt fit into the picture with battalions etc

Apologies for my ignorance but I really would like to discover something about my father's experiences. Particularly where he went an what he did.

I also cannot find any place in Germany called Linde. Any thoughts on what type of establishment this could have been. I have no idea of the year it was taken.

A battalion was comprised of four companies, normally lettered A to D. Within them were four platoons (Nos 1- 4 in A Company, Nos 5-8 in B etc).

The 19th Middlesex Regiment were the Pioneers to the 41st Division. After the Armistice, this division went to Germany as part of the Army of Occupation on 6th January 1919. It was stationed around Cologne. By March, demobilisation began, and slowly the battalions were disbanded.

It is therefore likely that Linde is around Cologne (try something like mappy.com ) and that this photo was taken between January and March 1919.

Hope that helps.

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